Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

Because a picture is worth a thousand words…here is Hannah Mouncey (who played competitively as both male and female categories). I can imagine none of those women playing against Hannah feel that Hannah’s presence is particularly ‘fun’.

Ha, I just thought the same!

Igneococcus
Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so.

Can they squeeze a baby through?

Absurd. As they would never need to. This is becoming farcical which is what you all want. Hey ho, it is only going to increase.

///

Turning a penis into a "functional vagina" is probably one of the most farcical ideas anyone ever came up with but hey ho ...

I was trying to find a way to reply to that also but your précis works for me

@inamarina I genuinely don't know

It was an argument expressed to me. I guess you would question why anyone would put themselves through that if they just wanted to identify as a gender. To me it suggests they want to be biologically a woman. As a medical professional they believe it's possible?

I also don't believe you can change your biological sex, but my stepson identifies as a woman and I can see first hand the huge issues for all involved.

They claim they don't have any sexuality, so I did gently ask what it is about being a woman he identifies with, because biology aside, there is nothing intrinsically gendered that a girl or boy can't like or do.

It didn't go down well, and my partner is so scared of pushing them away he will agree with anything. I'm staying out of it. It seems to me there are an awful lot of other issues involved with him that he is masking with his gender identity, but he has a mum and dad, it's none of my business

But the point is that the purpose of the vagina is species propagation

So it it doesn't support that it isn't functioning

Oh sorry nasty biological truth ... sorry to be so revolting

Fuckhole to nowhere =/= functional vagina. Or even a non-functional vagina. It is an remains a surgically created cavity, a wound that has to be kept open artificially instead of being allowed to heal, grows hair inside when made from penile or scrotal skin, and is likely to stink of feces if made from the colon (as was the case with that poor boy Jazz Jennings, who'd been put on puberty blockers and exogenous hormones so young that his genitals didn't even grow big enough to be used in this appalling surgery).

Some Medics think that the person may be better served if they participate in a myth

Barely 5% of TW have genital surgery. The vast majority are heterosexual men who have every intention of using their penises

I think she explained it quite well actually, in all nuance, yet you’re choosing to apply exactly the simplistic, absolutist view she was talking about. That’s on you though.

Women pick up on male cues - both in male bodies (even after transition, because certain things like gait, skeletal proportions and facial proportions remain) and in female bodies if they’d been subjected to testosterone treatment.

Picking up on these male cues, especially in closed spaces like toilets or changing rooms, can cause distress for some women. Nowhere did PP say she considered both transwomen and transmen to be men.

Some medics are making a lot of money from transgender surgeries.

True @MissScarletInTheBallroom

Fuckhole to nowhere

😂

Haven't RTFT in full but I am anti homophobia, anti misogyny, and anti the denial of material reality so by default I am anti trans.

No one needs to "flash their vagina" and it's weird how many genderists use this grim language.

It is like a script.

It starts with:

Transwomen are women.

then moves to

A jeeringly stated 'well if you want male people to use male single sex spaces, then you must then accept female people who have taken testosterone too' .

then moves to

But 'whatabout' masculine looking / androgynous female people?

then moves to either:

You have a mixed sex toilet at home, what is the difference?
You go to the toilet pee and leave, what does it matter if a male person is in there?
They have always been there!
Female people attack female people too!
I have no issue with it, why should you!

I mean, there are others that cycle around, but this is just a selection.

Do you know what is never posted?

The evidence that this sub-group of male people have a sex offence rate that is the same or lower than the general UK female population so that their risk is the same or lower than other women being in that space.

Plus there is rarely an answer to the question of quantifying their own beliefs in supplying a number to the question: How many or how many more female people do you (ie the person being asked) accept to be harmed in any way by allowing male people, above the age of 8 and at any stage of transition, access to female single sex spaces before the rules, guidance and laws are clarified and changed if needed?

Plus there is never any acknowledgement that a male person who claims that they are a female person can never know the material reality of being a female person . So is therefore only ever claiming that they don't feel as they understand a male person should feel like, or have their very own interpretation of what it is to be a female based on their very male experiences in life. I have noticed that posters declaring that male people have become women just double down that those male people are women without ever understanding the very logic that shows this to be an obvious falsehood.

Read it again.

You have dismissed as "long winded" something you didn't actually understand.

Gait (due to different hips), upper lip, brow, hand size, jaw. They ain't things affected by masculine women. They are actual physical features of men.

You might be a (rare) woman who doesn't detect sex, or you might be a man. Most women however can detect sex. We are mammals. It's kind of important.

Did I have to 'flash my vagina' to gain entry to the toilets as a child? No.

Since when did any woman or girl being asked if they were in the correct single sex space have to do that? You have now indulged in catastrophising. It is yet another cognitive distortion that you are trying to use to convince others that male people should have access to female single sex spaces.

It is also an emotionally manipulative statement to make this type of catastrophised statement that women and girls may have to show their vaginas to gain access to the spaces they need. It is really rather fucked up to use this as a point in a debate.

Now none of this would be needed to be discussed if male people had always respected female people's needs for single sex spaces and did not demand that they be allowed to use them. If some male people with transgender identities can respect female people's needs for single sex spaces and not use them, as we know some male transgender people do, why can't the rest of the male people with transgender identities show that same respect and not use female single sex spaces?

Aye,but we're the ones 'obsessed with genitals'.

I don't think this was accurate even in the 90s and is far less so now, when more trans women are middle aged straight men before transitioning (and there are far more young trans men). I used to live in the trans area of a metro known for having many LGBT ppl. Most of the trans ppl I knew were trans women and very few of them were more feminine than the average gay man I saw (or knew).

Your comment seems homophobic to me. There is no reason for most very effeminate gay men to transition. If they're gay, it's a very bad idea to get SRS since few gay men want to have sex with someone with a vagina (they like men/penis and are often repulsed by women's bits). If what you said was true (trans women are the most gay), gay men should like trans women who have fully transitioned and had SRS. Your comment sounds like "transing the gay away."

Nor is it fair to trans ppl who are not necessarily gay and, even if they are, are not necessarily the most effeminate (masculine for trans men). Trans and gay are not different points along the same scale; they are different things. It also seems misogynistic to assume that "more effeminate" = woman. Women are not a set of behaviors, personalities, or characteristics. They can be more masculine (in dress, interests, etc) than most men, doesn't make them less of a woman.

@DianeAbbotsJamjars

To me, trans is a further extension of homosexuality, its a scale and at the extreme end are those that wish to fully transition to the opposite end.

What has being gay got in common with wanting to change sex? Especially to the point you believe they can be measured on the same scale.

Genuinely, can you explain?

I’m assuming the women who are scared of men wouldn’t be scared of a child, so you’re being even more ridiculous now.

I’m catastrophising? I’m happy for anyone to use the same toilets as me as long as they go about their business. It’s that simple. You’re the ones saying anyone with male “cues” might scare women and shouldn’t be in there. What about butch or androgynous women? How do we police it?

You might be happy to share single sex spaces with the opposite sex, but most of us are not.

Unless it's a freely given yes from all women, it's a no.

Whatever you might say, we can actually tell the difference between male and female people. Even if you make a mistake at first glance, that becomes clear upon a second glance.

But even if we couldn't tell, which we can, every single trans person knows what kind of genitals they were born with, and is capable of making the correct choice.

Yep.

There is a reason that even many of the male people who choose to have their face peeled off and have their brow bones shaved, their jaw line shaved and their Adam's apple shaved, cheek implants added, hairline lowered, upper lip filled, and the space between the nose and the upper lip narrowed, and the bow in the upper lip made more pronounced, nose narrowed, and the slant of their eyes adjusted don't even then succeed in replicating the female face. It is because there is still many other facial cues that simply cannot be changed. Like the spacing of the eyes.

It is like the male 'cleavage'. Because of the circumference of the male chest, those breasts they develop or have augmented just don't really sit right on the torso.

The male voice will also generally be picked as male.

There are always exceptions but those exceptions do not change the facts that male people are highly likely to be correctly identified as being male people.

Some people will never pick it all up. Some people will refuse to acknowledge this is the case. But material reality will generally be unchangeable and most often undisguisable.