Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

'Pride for all' and a unicorn for every household in the UK.

What is your definition of anti trans?

I know that a man can never become a woman. I don't want men to be in single sex female spaces. I don't want men to be competing in women's sports, both amateur and professional events. I don't want children to be told they have been born in the wrong body. I don't want children to be given puberty blockers. I want medical professionals to leave children out of it and for adults to stop telling them it's a simple decision to change their sex.

Does this make me anti trans?

If a grown adult wants to change their name and dress up then fair enough. I'm not going to abuse anyone. I would choose to ignore and not make any comment. But if I'm told I must say they are now a woman and I should accept them in changing room etc then I refuse.

I think it shows how unimportant it is to people who use ‘I don’t like the words they use so I didn’t do any research into what was happening’.

It was seeing women being abused on social media for stating facts about being female that alerted me to what was happening. Because I had been blissfully unaware. I saw women being abused, usually by male people who described themselves as woman and I thought, WTAF! And I started reading. I read sources from anyone to work out all sides of the story.

But by fuck, I read. And I had to start reading original sources too because one group, not feminists, had a habit of misrepresenting those original sources. Whether for abusive reasons or to make an authoritative source say what they wanted it to say.

But I was searching for the truth. I wasn’t about to allow bad language to mean I remain uninformed.

some lesbians (e.g. England ladies football team) possess masculine traits like physicality, aggression, competitiveness. Some are "born in the wrong body"

But doesn’t that imply that there is something wrong with the way these women are?
That they are so masculine, physical and competitive, that they can’t be really female and must have been “born in the wrong body”.
Why can’t we just accept them as masculine, physical and competitive women born into exactly the right body (namely their own)?

Who is bullying abd attacking trans people? I’ll take a wild guess that it is predominantly men. Yet women are thrown under the bus…AGAIN

having someone make fun of you isn’t oppression otherwise Christians will be the most oppressed group in history.

as for being attacked/ killed for being trans please give me the stats. I am sure the stats for the attack and murder of women are much higher but I am willing to be educated.

I haven’t seen anyone say all trans people are dangerous. In fact read through this thread- it has actually, in the main, been very pleasant and women have been clearly putting forward their perfectly legitimate concerns.

Thr attacks on women are what 100% peaked me.

I attended a conference on womens liberation and education at UCL last year. Every single woman there without exception was polite, reasonable, used measured words, discussed these important issues with great thoughtfulness and nuance and was there to focus on women and children, not trans people. There wasn’t even a hint of hatred. Not a sniff. We were there to talk about safeguarding children and women’s rights.

Meanwhile, outside for the entirety of the day, TRAs screamed and hurled misogynistic abuse, banged on windows (meaning we had to move rooms more than once), and I had ‘fucking terf cunt!’ shouted in my face by a young man in a dress on my way back to the tube.

The last remaining scale fell from my eye that day, I tell you.

It actually is as simple as that.

All men have to be excluded from women’s spaces because women have the right to single-sex privacy. If men are present, that privacy is lost. In addition, there’s no way of knowing which men will be predators.

That’s only one element of safeguarding. But it’s an essential element.

Louise Perry talks about how gay sexual culture is often male sexuality without the brakes on, the brakes being women's typical aversion to sexual extremes. There was a case in Newcastle years ago that I was loosely involved with as part of my job that really opened my eyes as to how true that is.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/02/former-government-vet-kirk-thompson-guilty-of-manslaughter-bird-flu

chuckin

I hear you. Women who campaign for the prioritisation of sex over gender when sex matters are not trying to silence transgender voices. They are not trying to block or drown out any of transgender people’s events. They are not trying to close down their events and have them cancelled. When feminists attend events aimed at supporting transgender people, those feminists don’t disrupt them. Or make videos of them being in single sex spaces that they know they are not supposed to be in.

Only groups who support extreme transgender rights do those things.

I have been to several events where mostly male people stand and shout mantras and the most ridiculous things at women to shame women for meeting. It is eye opening.

I didn't reply to the comment on sport on the last thread because there was no room but someone posted that sport should be fun so it didn't matter if it was mixed sex. So men get to compete, win money and satisfaction whilst women get to "have fun"? Sexist bollocks.

'the concepts of males and females will synergise.'

And thus our non binary utopia will come to pass, all humans shall be indistinguishable from each other, body parts will be added or removed to taste, all humans shall become pansexual, babies will be purchased from vending machines, and violence, rape, and abuse shall evaporate like morning dew. Amazing. Also the bin schedules will be synchronised.

Men get to have fun. Women get to support them.

This I find the weirdest thing. Sport can be fun but it is also an industry. So aside from the unfairness directly to the hard working girls/womwn I have no idea what the value of sport brings to the economy but it is a lot! If you made all sport mixed you would lose half the competition. From a purely financial standpoint that is such a bizarre argument.

And for everyone who states that ‘sport should be fun’, the answer is obvious. There are already mixed sex social teams available in most sports. Males who want to play sport can join those teams.

‘sports should be fun’ is a meaningless statement to distract from the discussions that need to be had about female safety and competition in sport. And female privacy needs too. It is a thought terminating phrase and anyone using it as a reason to wedge in male people into female sports is either lazy and cannot form an argument or is just there to distract.

I was a “tomboy” as a child, sporty and generally preferring to be outdoors and active. I have a STEM degree, have worked in male dominated jobs that require physical strength and agility, was competitive as an adult in more than one sport and, in my 70s, visit the gym three times a week for a thorough workout. There is nothing about this that makes me, or any woman like me, “masculine” or “born in the wrong body”.

That utopia was what I thought this poster was aiming for too.

It was on par though with the statement that science will somehow transcend the physical. I read a lot of science fiction. But even I know that is fiction and not a target to achieve in 2150.

And even then, that poster probably doesn’t understand it, but if children are dispensed from a vending machine (or incubated in factories) that again leaves female people as holes to fuck as the only expected difference between the sexes. Perhaps they didn’t think that misogynistic future view of female people through…

To muddy the waters further, these conventions are both historically and geographically specific.

Exactly. A female person might be born into a society where women are expected to dress and behave in a certain narrowly defined way (conservative clothing, expected to get married, have children and look after her husband) or she might be born into a more liberal society where she can decide whether or not to marry and have children and choose a career path she likes.
In those two hypothetical scenarios, would she really be equally likely to feel like she doesn’t fulfil society’s expectations of what a woman should be like?

Sure, but why risk having the bad ones in the female changing room, right next to you while you undress?
There are plenty of perfectly good men out there too, wouldn’t want them in a female changing room either 🤷‍♀️

That nails the attitude alright.

Whoop 🙄

And earlier this year, there was this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/23/doctors-gender-critical-conference-ambushed-protestors/

Archive link to avoid paywall: https://archive.ph/uyLnP

Because male genitals can be used as a weapon and female genitals cannot.

One of the best things I have read on MN, sums it up perfectly

Are you really basing the likelihood of men being statistically more or less aggressive than women on your experience with your three sons?

I have a lovely husband fwiw, but it wouldn’t occur to me to question statistics about domestic violence based on that.

DH would never sexually assault anyone but I would still think it inappropriate for him to be in a female only space (and he would be horrified at the thought too)