To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

And you'd look the two victims of Katie Dolatowski (who were aged 10 and 12) in the face and tell them it was 'worth it', would you?

I think he was last clocked harassing and abusing a feminist rally via a megaphone, having been released from prison. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

We’re back to the idea of women needing special protections there, which I’ve covered my thoughts on. I see no conflict.

I have colleagues, friends and children of friends who are trans. They are all kind people I’d stand up for in any disagreement or wrong. People I actively like. None of them have encroached on anyone else or been disrespectful. I fully believe in their right to respect.

However, this is different to blindly supporting every national policy or pressure group and not thinking at all about the impact on society in the wider sense. I take a nuanced view, for example around prisons. I don’t think that’s a safe place to have self ID for all, but I do actively support a safe third space being used.

Or the four women sexually assaulted by Karen White in prison.

Intellectual masturbation covers it.

Hit post too soon, will come back to this.

Wow, you don’t see any difference there? The ‘risk’ of women working was a risk women took in order for a pay off that benefitted them (financial independence). What you’re asking is for women to increase the risk to themselves to benefit MALES. So essentially you’re saying you care more about males feelings than female safety.

Shall we start with your female family members? You'd care if it came to your life door but until then the small risk is fine of other women being harmed ?

To all the posters worrying about cis women feeling comfortable in rape crisis centres...why do you think a trans woman might be there? Because she has been raped and is in crisis and seeking care.

Is there no way to provide BOTH the services and care that this male needs and the single sex female only services and care that those women need? Is it really only possible to care for that man by sacrificing those women who cannot use the service once he walks into it?

Look at the current case coming to court. Three separate options for men to choose from re their rape crisis support. Three separate groups available to best meet their needs. The woman going to court asked for a single sex female one in addition. Not in any way wishing to take away this provision for men, just to have an accessible option herself too.

Those men and their supporters called this transphobic and unacceptable and refused to tolerate an accessible group to exist for her.

This dog in the manger intolerance of women who won't bow and subordinate themselves - or are unlucky enough to have no choice about it and just can't - is the problem.

And those in need of fainting couches because oh the terrible transphobia of MN - what you are saying is you cannot bear the horror of women refusing to sacrifice themselves unconditionally to men. That is all you can mean by transphobia.

You have already decided what is true and what is not.

We haven’t decided it! The truth is based on evidence and science. If you want to propose something (eg men are women) that flies in the face of the most basic scientific facts, you’re going to have to come up with l, you know, evidence.

And, erm, ‘negotiating with a terrorist’?! Really? Remind me which side the violence has been on from day one…

I haven’t, science has. Biology has. It just is!

Just like I can’t wake up tomorrow and decide I’m 16 years old again. Someone else might think that’s possible, but it’s not. Never will be, and it can never be up for debate. That person’s delusion can be debated yes. But not the fact of being able to be 16 years old again.

I gotta say I bloody ADORE that when it comes to it you all resort to sort of vaguely ominous ‘we can see you’ ‘we know your type’ high sparrow stuff. You do you babes

@Horseebooks

We’re back to the idea of women needing special protections there, which I’ve covered my thoughts on.

Do you not believe that trans women need special protections either? I do, I think there will be experiences they have that natal women don't have that mean they need and deserve specialist support.

Women are telling you there is a conflict.

Women are saying, "We need single sex spaces where no males are present because we don't feel safe using these spaces in the company of male people."

Trans women are saying, "We need to be in women only spaces with women because we believe these spaces align with our gender identity and because we don't feel safe in men's spaces."

Who wins? They can't both win.

By that logic post menopausal women don’t need women only toilets either.

Trans ally here though I do feel biological males should not participate in women’s sport.

I am supremely unconcerned about my female family members interacting with trans people. Does that help?

I’ve pointed out to you myself a very specific conflict when I highlighted my need for same sex care. Was the empathy you claimed to have, false?

@TheBirdintheCave Do you genuinely feel that women, girls, and rape survivors like me posting to defend the hard won rights to safe single sex spaces is 'horrible'? Or is it that you hadn't really thought about it, and block boards so you don't actually have to spend any time thinking about it and the points made?

@KimberleyClark

Trans ally here though I do feel biological males should not participate in women’s sport.

Can I ask why? What's the reason that you think they should compete in a category that invalidates their gender identity which could cause them huge distress? Isn't that transphobic?

Well it's true. You're great at big ideas, bad at detail.

But without the detail, these ideas are just that. Ideas. With no relevance to real life.

In the meantime you appear to think that trans women's wants trump women's needs.

Of course, but that’s not a women’s problem to solve. If trans women don’t feel they can use facilities that align to their sex for what, they don’t feel safe with other males (as they are male), then that’s a male problem to solve. It’s not for women. If women want to get involved more power to them, but they don’t get to insist other women do.

Asda use cis. I hate the prefix cis.

Yeah everyone should have support. I just reckon a world where that support isn’t related to a male/female oppressor/oppressed binary would be better

Your consent and your body, no one wishes to stop you getting undressed with and doing intimate things such as medical care or toileting with anyone you wish.

When women say no, do not consent, cannot consent - should we ditch those women from society or punish them because their boundaries restrict male self expression? How many women harmed equal the feelings of one man? Why don't females matter as much as males to you?

Doesn't that make a bit of a nonsense of pretending any belief that those males ever at any point become anything but male?