To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

See, I think it is actually really unkind to tell trans people that they are whatever they identify as. Of course the majority of people will never believe that.

Nobody here is saying that all trans women are intrinsically a threat to women. We are saying that male people are a threat to women, which is why male people are supposed to stay out of women's spaces. Trans women are male people. They might not like to hear that. It might not correspond to how they feel about themselves. But it is objectively true from a biological standpoint, and it is the truth so far as the majority of people they will meet in the real world are concerned.

One point about the suicide statistics. It's dangerous and irresponsible to make these sorts of claims. They are not backed up by data. The often cited "41% of trans people have contemplated or attempted suicide" statistic was based on a self selecting sample of about 26 people, if I remember correctly. The best evidence we actually have is that the rate of suicide among trans people is about on a par with the rate of suicide among people with mental illness. Make of that what you will. There are many examples of certain conditions being caused and and propagated by social contagion. In Hong Kong in the 1990s, anorexia didn't really exist. Then following a big publicity campaign originating in the western world, there was suddenly a huge number of girls in Hong Kong with anorexia. Sometimes, if you put the idea in someone's head, they will run with it, when if you never put the idea in their head, they will be totally fine. We need to stop putting the idea in children's heads that if they don't conform to regressive stereotypes or they feel uncomfortable in their developing body they must be trans. And we need to stop putting the idea in trans people's heads that they are an oppressed and vulnerable minority, that they are hated by most people, and that they are at high risk of committing suicide. The last thing we want is for it to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

By interesting you mean the risks for women and girls will increase?

Your thought experiments are hugely naive, I'm afraid.

The fact that the world accepts and fantically accomodates the statement of the biological man in a frock that they are now a woman over the statement of the biological woman that they are absolutely not shows that the world us absolutely aware of which is a man and which is actually a woman.

trans is a class issue

Yes, it is. It's the issue of whether a member of the oppressor class can wear the mantle of the oppressed. In doing so, does he lose the privilege to which he was born? Or does he move among the oppressed class as an impostor, wielding power while claiming oppression?

It's instructive to look at the case of Rachel Dolezal, one of surprisingly many white people to have persuaded everyone around them that they were black. She attained positions of influence in race relations and black cultural promotion, positions that were reserved for people of colour.

trans women are women

The classification issue again. Only two things define a trans woman:

1. They say they are a woman or trans woman.
2. They are biologically male.

Women-women don't need to say we're women, and we are biologically female.

I fail to see how these two classes are in any way similar, let alone the same. But I've never seen it discussed in any sensible way. It'll be very interesting if the TWAW allies can get stuck into it!

Notes:
Class isn't meant as socio-economic class here; it's 'large grouping'.
Nobody born female can be a trans woman.

@DoorPath

In your opinion are lesbians 'bigots' if they wouldn't date a trans woman who still has a penis?

There's precious little talk of trans men here. Why is that?

I see male cleaners almost every time I stop at motorway services. Nobody bats an eyelid. I don’t see crowds of women waiting outside for him to finish cleaning either. As I said earlier, I have NEVER seen a trans woman in any toilets or changing rooms, but I have seen male staff.

He got sent back to prison for inciting 'allies' to punch women. Now out,and back to protesting women's rights demos.

It's not confusing though, is it?

We all know who is a man and who is a woman even if we pretend otherwise.

This has in no way stopped male violence against women and girls.

Exactly, pretty much every culture around the world has the same problem, funny that.

Men will always be more violent than women, for the same reason you’re more likely to be bitten by a male dog than female.

@ThatOpenSwan

And because I'm in the mood: yes to trans women in women's toilets, yes I would share a changing room with a trans woman, yes I would let my daughter share a changing room with a trans woman, prisons should be abolished but if they're going to exist, yes to trans women in the women's estate, yes to puberty blockers for teenagers if they want them.

Natal men who identify as trans women and are sex offenders should be placed in a female prison with natal women?

Natal women who statistically are more likely than the general population to have already been victims of male violence, sexual assault or rape?

Because they are female and so no one cares about them.

Men will always be more violent than women, for the same reason you’re more likely to be bitten by a male dog than female.

I didn't actually know that! It makes sense now that you say it though.

They don’t post the same risk to females as males do. As they are female.

I'm not sure tbh. Its nuanced isn't it? For every psycho like the person you've described there are non violent prisoners who aren't a threat.

But I suppose, in standing with my previous post if they had a penis then no, they shouldn't be in a womans prison but probably a secure hospital given the nature of their self mutilation.

I don’t think your stats are correct. I’m not a statistics expert but if 6ft women are above the 99.7th centile, doesn’t that mean there are 3 in every thousand women? Where do you get the figure 105 from?
I have a 6ft daughter so tend to notice other very tall women. They are unusual but I see them fairly frequently. There are certainly more than 105 in the country! (I bet businesses like Long Tall Sally would know.)

Are you serious?

Ok, what if we just let people do whatever the fuck they like, yeah? Where do you think that would end? Hint: women and children would be the ultimate losers in whatever dystopian nightmare scenario you can come up with.

You're a what?

I'm the pro-trans poster - the only thing I really feel about is trans women who have sexually offended should not be able to circulate around any prison - and there should be women-only rape clinics.

Can I ask why, if you believe trans women are women?

They don't present a risk to women. Feminists problems are the loss of women's rights by the erosion of language, and women's safety. Transmen are just irrelevant.

Most feminists would say that transmen need sex based rights - such as the maternity protections - just as much as the rest of us.

In contact sports, whether at elite level, college, school, amateur, whatever, a woman competing against a man is more vulnerable to being injured by him.
In any sport, access for women and girls is a huge problem already for many reasons. Adding in men or boys is just going to make more girls and women feel like sport is not for them.
And how about changing rooms/showers? Do you think women and girls should be obligated to share these spaces with men who identify as women?

Why is it that all the biological men who want to identify as women and play rugby with young girls or swim ( and therefore change) with women or beat them up in boxing rings were all absolutely crap at those sports when they were men. The only top athlete who has transitioned is Bruce Jenner and he didn't transition to she until sport was far behind him. If I identified as a 7 year old I dare say I could finally get the certificate at school sports that eluded me as an actual seven year old. Sadly everyone would quite rightly think I was an absolutely sad twat.

Oh and @DoorPath, isn't @Lilieee a transphobe if she believes this, based on your previous definitions of what makes a transphobe?

Yeah I meant a benefit to men… obviously

it’ll be wicked when they’re all on hormones and I can fight them easy or call my big strong sister out of the cubicle to see them off

I do not seek a culture where I fight to hide more effectively, or need ‘protecting’ solely because of my sex class. I seek a culture where there is no value judgement on male/female. No assumptions made about anything

Tell me you don’t understand the issues without telling me you don’t understand the issues.