To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

The majority of posts are not just hate. Most people started out thinking like you saying that there may be a few little problems with sports or medicalisation of children. And these people were bullied, intimidated, fired from jobs, dropped from sports teams etc. Your middle ground stance isn't good enough to not be a transphobe according to many on this thread. You can ignore the clash of rights if you want to, but you can't wish it out of existence. People will continue to be harmed by this regressive ideology and they will want to speak out against it.

Males are a threat to females, statistically. However they identify.

I don’t think those stats are correct. I have a daughter who is 6ft tall, so I tend to notice other very tall women.

I don't think I've ever met a trans person in my life. If I have done, I've never realised.

I think the issue is hugely blown up on MN. There are some things I disagree with (like giving puberty blockers to children or people with a penis in spaces like prison/ women only wards) but once they've fully transitioned I don't see a problem with either.

@Porageeater
Yeah, this really, is not a thing. We know a female from a male. This gets thrown around repeatedly 'oh but what about butch lesbians?' but is simply a homophobic/lesbophobic trope.

But lets suppose for the sake of argument it does. Women and girls are understandably on high alert of males in our spaces. So, let me get this straight;

males invade our spaces.
Women on high alert.
Womens reacting to perceived threat is now OUR FAULT, too!?

And not the fault of males who STARTED THIS?

So basically, it is victim-blaming. Males invade our spaces, but it is the WOMEN AND GIRLS who are blamed for understandably reacting by being on high alert. Even our reactions are held against us! Do you not realise how misogynistic and gaslighting this entire thing is?

No, it’s because you don’t present any logical, reasonable argument. Sound bites then ‘waaah you don’t listen anyway! Fingers in ears style.

One side is belief/opinion.
The other is simple fact. Which isn’t ignorant and hurtful, no matter how many times you repeat it or don’t want to hear it.

Well, seems to me, the most viable option at the moment is this fad for making it really confusing about who is and isn’t a ‘man’ and a ‘woman’

carry on down that road and I have a feeling shit could get proper interesting

@Lilieee

If they have had operations etcetera and are no longer classified as men then they cannot go here.

Do you have a source for this?

Whilst I don't agree with any of those statements, I can see why a trans ally would say them if you truely believe TWAW. Apart from one - puberty blockers for teenagers, how does anyone justify the harm in that?

Yes I do. As I said in that post, I believe gendered violence is culture

Remarkable how prevelant it is across all global cultures and all times periods, then.
Certainly some cultures can mitigate or exacerbate it. But it never doesn't exist.

@Tandora just to check, which ignorant views? The view that humans can't change sex? The view that trans women are males? The view that children shouldn't have puberty blockers? The view that single sex spaces should be protected? The view that CIS is a stupid and unnecessary prefix? The view that trans women shouldn't be in women's sports? The view that gender is the performance of sexist, regressive stereotypes? These ignorant views? (shared by almost 100 percent of the country 🤣🤣)

So all of these ‘inclusive’ women on here would happily strip almost naked (or be happy for their 19yr old daughter to) and have fake tan applied by double rapist Isla/Adam Bryson? And you are happy that if your daughter felt uncomfortable and objected, she would be thrown off the course and labelled an transphobe? Intriguing.

And? I wouldn’t want Rose West giving her a spray tan either, shall we ban all women from giving spray tans?

define fully transitioned

Fucking A!! Brilliant! I am very unwell and incredibly nauseaus, but you truly made me laugh out loud at that description, I even visualised it! Thank you! 😆

I accept transwomen as transwomen, but I won’t pretend they’re women. Why isn’t that enough? Why isn’t it ok for women to want to preserve their spaces and rights, and to support trans people create their own? Why is submission the only way for a woman not to be transphobic? Do you acknowledge that letting males into all female spaces, including sports and prisons, increase the risk to women? Are we allowed to acknowledge that risk, or is that transphobic too and we just have to meekly accept the increased risk?

Do you think Sarah Baker, convicted for life for attempted murder, who cut his own balls off and reportedly ate them, should be in a woman's prison?

Let’s have some hope for the future eh. I’m not super keen on being defined eternally by my physical strength or lack thereof, much as I’m sure it was an enormous benefit up til about a hundred years ago

I don’t think those stats are correct. I have a daughter who is 6ft tall, so I tend to notice other very tall women.

I'm half an inch short of 6ft and I know several women who are taller than me. I also don't think those statistics are right. I have never been mistaken for a man despite my height and I never mistook any of the other tall females for men. The former schoolmate of my dd who is currently crowdfunding for a double mastectomy is about 5ft1 and even after more than a year on testosterone still looks distinctly female.

Bad faith

This, and I'm surprised it hasn't been pointed out more. A goady question with the implication of 'no debate', followed by a faux-innocent protestation that 'I didn't want a fight'.

Nobody's fighting. There's every reason to push back against such an over-simplistic thread and you've had lots of well-considered reasons why.

Male cleaners check and give warning, first. Where I am a safety A/frame warning notification is placed at the entrance of the toilets when it is 'in cleaning'. And 99% of cleaners are women.

You're really ridiculously grasping at straws here. And you must know it.

It was a post exactly like this, about seven years ago, which peaked me and moved my stance from fluffy, ambivalent be kinder to gender critical thinking. So thank you op, because I've no doubt you've woken up a fair few people via this thread.

I'm half an inch shy of 6' and I'd say it's a rarity, I always feel like the giraffe in the room, clothes can be hard work. I joke that every woman I know locally has size 5 feet.
Oddly though, when I'm visiting places like London, I see far more tall women.

@BlueFlint

"I don't believe someone feeling "uncomfortable" having a transwoman in their female hospital ward is a reason to make a transwoman stay on a male ward where they are likely to be much more uncomfortable and at risk. Ditto for prisons and other "non optional" spaces"

With this in mind, what is the rationale for single sex provision in the first place? Would you be happy to see mixed sex provision across the board except for sport?

If you are happy for provision to be mixed sex on the basis that gender identity should trump natal sex, I think your position 'has legs'. If you think there should be single sex provision but gender identity should determine access, this argument doesn't hold water.

If you think provision should be 'single gender', rather than single sex, what is the rationale for this? I struggle to see why admission to a hospital ward should be determined by gender identity - in this instance, I am not sure if the relevance of putting people together due to how they identify.

Let’s have some hope for the future eh. I’m not super keen on being defined eternally by my physical strength or lack thereof, much as I’m sure it was an enormous benefit up til about a hundred years ago

Being weaker than men has never been a benefit. It's a disadvantage and always has been. It is literally lethal in some cases.
Unfortunately that's the reality. The best you can hope for is to strive for a culture where the violence is minimised.
You are in danger from men due to being weaker than them. It sucks, I don't blame you for not being keen.

Fgs, if that's true, they should be in a psychiatric facility obviously.