To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

To all the posters worrying about cis women feeling comfortable in rape crisis centres...why do you think a trans woman might be there? Because she has been raped and is in crisis and seeking care.

Women set up these centres. Any group who suffers sexual violence, and this includes men attacked by other men, should be organising to have appropriate crises facilities.

You posted it in AIBU, what did you expect?

They rarely ever do have the operation though. So you're suggesting we let in all males with their penis and testicles, for the 3% that do? And having operations to modify genitals has absolutely zero to do with Biology.

Do you even know Biology is?

Don’t forget the hand gestures that they think a femine bit actually far more typical of a gay man

Hans have been fine tuning spot the difference since their existence began, it’s fundamental to survival

Wouldn't say I'm "pro trans' but what you do with your life I don't really care. Certain things I don't agree with in regard to trans but if you want me to call you Emma even if you look like Steve I will, doesn't bother me

Um, what? Ok, I’m going to try to use logic on a TRA. Let’s see how it goes…

• You cannot remove all risk. Ever. It’s not possible.
• It would be better if people didn’t assault anyone.
• I’m sorry you were assaulted by a female. (I did not make this the headline of my previous post and I’m sorry of you found that unsympathetic.)
• Your being assaulted by a female does not make female-perpetrated assaults more common than male-perpetrated attacks.
• Males remain a much higher risk to females than other females, for obvious reasons.
• Keeping female toilets for females is a provably safer option for women.

No its not.

Me.
The transphobia on MN is off the scale. Its really sad to see.
There are some comments were they have fair concerns such as medical intervention for children, unfairness in sport etc but they seem to be in the minority. What I see in a lot of the posts is just hate and a complete shut down of the difficulties trans people face and these people are so closed minded and lacking in empathy that they can not understand another person's perspective.

What if you just let people use whatever toilet they wanted to

Oh sorry also, yes to trans women in women's sport, although there is a slightly complicated conversation here about elite women's athletics, which is the only place I've been convinced it could be an actual problem. But we can't have those kinds of subtle conversations until we accept everyone's basic right to have a nice time enjoying sport, so at the moment I hold the line: trans women should compete as women

Its not a slightly complicated argument, its a really simple argument that we divide sports by sex as its sex that affects performance potential, not gender identity. Gender identity has no impact on performance. Its makes no more sense to segregate sport by gender identity than it does by eye colour or hair colour. Its meaningless.

And I am fed up to the back teeth of people devaluing womens' sport by saying it doesn't really matter and isn't really important, so we can let males into it. Amateur sportspeople care very much about their sport and their position. They often train very hard, and commit a lot of time to it. I run. Results are posted by sex and age as these are the two characteristics everyone has, and which affect performance potential. Men and women look to see where they are placed within their age and sex category. As you age, its how you see how well you are keeping up, or even progress, your fitness as your times will inevitably start to increase as you slow. But you can see if you are improving or maintaining relative to your age and sex category. These categories stop being helpful to women if males are included in them. Women can't see where they are positioned if males are in their category. We already have an issue with girls and women dropping out of sport at a higher rate than men. We combat that, not increase it by allowing males in and signalling to women that this does not matter as they and their sport does not matter.

Now if amateur sports don't really matter, so positions don't really matter, why not get rid of results altogether? Of course, that would never happen as the men would be outraged to lose this - its such a vital part of amateur sport. So it will remain, with only the women's results being adversely affected, as its only for women that these things don't really matter, eh?

I want to use a female only toilet.

Exactly. I mean look at all the Terfs who disrupt trans meetings talking about what it means to be trans with their placards with 'punch trans people in the face, decapitate trans people', trying to get it cancelled, banging drums, screaming over them, threatening rape.

Oh hold on...

What if you just let people use whatever toilet they wanted to

I prefer toilet facilities to be segregated by sex thanks. My feelings matter too.

Did you miss the bit where I was positing it as a potential future outcome of all this or do you just love fighting

Thank you for your excellent post. This sums up exactly how I feel too, especially your last paragraph.

I definitely see plenty of transphobia and fear on Mumsnet and find some of it quite shocking. There seems to be a feeling that all trans women are intrinsically a threat to women and I just don't believe that's the case. It's a bit of an echo chamber.

I think it must be incredibly hard living as a trans person (this is backed up by the unusually high rates of suicide) and the vast majority are just trying to quietly get on with it. Must feel awful to know that a decent sized chunk of society will never accept you.

This was a normal workplace. It was small so no hope of supervision. But there was never any need for it tbh.

Did you miss the bit where I was positing it as a potential future outcome of all this or do you just love fighting

You think human males are going to overcome millenia of evolution that makes them how they are? I'm not fighting with you, it's just not logical.

Any ideas about how we actually achieve that outcome?

If you have a plan about how to stop male violence against women and girls, we'd all love to hear it.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if trans men fought for specialist provisions, just as feminists did in years gone by?

A huge number of women would support this and fight for trans women's rights to a specialist provision too, so that everyone can get the specialist care and support they need without retraumatising fellow victims of rape.

ah but they won’t listen to me, I’m just a lady (cis)

Once we solve MVAWG, then fine.

I am not anti trans. I have a cousin who is trans and who is a very nice (albeit very lost) person. That said I don’t understand why women’s spaces/places/scholarships etc have even been brought into this conversation. You have transwomen (men) and they don’t feel safe in men’s spaces - so surely this is an issue for all the men to sort out and is nothing to do with women.

I have a daughter and a mother and am a woman myself - so I do have issue with women’s spaces, sports, medical care, scholarships etc being impacted by trans issues. Women’s rights are distinct from trans issues and being pro women’s rights doesn’t make me anti trans people.

I want to use female toilets. I can’t stand ‘gender neutral’. I was in a pub and the toilets were gender neutral. At least two men were pissing in the cubicle with the doors wide open whilst a mum ushered a (female) kid quickly past. She looked terrified and I just thought ‘yeah, this is really inclusive 🙄’.

Plus there’s always piss all over the floor.

Hahaha. We always do. At least I do. People like you aren’t interested in listening or understanding though. You aren’t interested in building bridges. You aren’t interested in what people like me think , or why. There is no genuine curiosity behind your participation in debate. You demand answers from people on specific points like prosecutors in a criminal trial. You are not seeking to understand but to prove a point; the intention is to dominate and manipulate the conversation , to poke holes , to trap , to elicit confusion and achieve your “gotcha” moment. If all else fails you reduce to name calling, belittling and insults. You continue this until your opponent is mentally exhausted and checks out, then you laugh and sneer and accuse them of flouncing, until you are sure they are they are gone, and then you sit pretty in your anti- trans echo chamber, surrounded by others who share your Ignorant and hurtful views.

Yes I do. As I said in that post, I believe gendered violence is culture