To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

My head kinda hurts with all of this!

On the surface, I don’t really care who identifies as what as long as you’re being a decent human being and being kind to others. There seems to be a lot of anger from the trans community telling women how they should feel about women only spaces etc plus also being very aggressive if someone accidentally uses the wrong pronouns (although this might just be Twitter!).

I understand why trans women want to use women’s bathrooms or changing rooms etc but why should this be at the expense of the comfort of other women? Those that have suffered violence from men and those who just don’t feel comfortable getting changed in front of a biological ‘man’.

I think that if you’ve gone through the turmoil of hormones/top and bottom surgery you’re unlikely to do that as a predatory tool but there will undoubtedly be male predators that will use the ability to enter women only spaces because they want to perv at women/attack women. How do we know who is a threat and who isn’t?

I do not agree with non-binary school ‘boys’ being able to use male and female changing areas and I don’t believe in pumping hormones into kids. I do wonder/worry if being trans is just kids trying to find a way of fitting in and social media is fuelling this.

I respect someone like Caitlin Jenner who is living her best life but acknowledges that she will never be a biological woman and will not fully understand how it actually feels to be a biological woman.

India Willoughby exhausts me with her vitriol and does nothing to help the understanding of the trans community.

I also don’t agree with trans women in female sports. There are male/female categories for a reason!!

Apologies for the length of my answer but this all goes round in my head quite frequently!!!

What I think people miss from this debate is that the “anti-trans” people feel exactly the same way about non-violent males as they do trans-women.

I love my husband, he’s my best friend. He’s a feminist, huge on women’s rights and wouldn’t harm a fly. He has no place in women’s toilets, women’s sports, women’s changing rooms, women’s prisons or a women’s crisis centre. He would be nothing but positive in most of those scenarios, as an active “ally” to women. But because people with penises (I use this terminology for the “pro-trans” amongst us) are statistically a danger to those of us without, he is unfortunately tarred with the same brush as violent male offenders. I have no doubt the same can be said about many trans women. But until there is a foolproof way to identify who is and isn’t inclined to offend, all people with penises need to be treated the same way to protect those people without.

Indeed there will be people without penises who are also offenders. But this is so statistically rare that it’s not worth protecting against.

I don’t understand why trans people aren’t calling for higher barriers to GRC so that it helps become this burden of proof that they are truly trans and not pretending to offend (which we all must see is a risk here). For me, “bottom surgery” seems a sensible hurdle and with and without penis should be the distinction. I appreciate this is different to others with a GC point of view.

Maybe don't start a fight by accusing anyone who doesn't agree with the removal of womens most basic human rights, 'anti trans'.

You knew what you were doing.

Oh sorry also, yes to trans women in women's sport, although there is a slightly complicated conversation here about elite women's athletics, which is the only place I've been convinced it could be an actual problem. But we can't have those kinds of subtle conversations until we accept everyone's basic right to have a nice time enjoying sport, so at the moment I hold the line: trans women should compete as women.

No, she should use a third space so as not to alarm or offend other women.

Why would she be using the female toilets if they were a bonfide man, as you see trans people, and if they were so convincing they’d pass a male?

You cannot be a feminist when you prioritise men’s feelings and wishes over women’s safety, dignity and rights.

It’s literally the definition of feminism. It’s about women and women’s rights. Prioritising men’s feelings over women’s safety is the very antithesis of that.

I could eat meat and dairy several times a week or even daily and claim to be a vegan but it wouldn’t be true would it? It’d be a blatant lie.

I was 11 when I saw her.

My mum noticed it was a trans woman, and when I asked my mum why she looked different my mum explained.

I had more curiosity then vitriol, like anyone should.

She was just washing her hands, minding her business, fgs.

'And because I'm in the mood: yes to trans women in women's toilets, yes I would share a changing room with a trans woman, yes I would let my daughter share a changing room with a trans woman, prisons should be abolished but if they're going to exist, yes to trans women in the women's estate, yes to puberty blockers for teenagers if they want them.'

Blimey.

This thread is mind-blowing. I can’t take the OP seriously, I’m afraid.

OP’s stance is essentially: ‘Yay, I’m a trans ally. I’m nice and inclusive but with absolutely no substance to this position. Is there anyone else nice like me, not nasty like the people with critical thinking skills?’

Then a handful of absolute muppets pipe up saying ‘thank god you’re here with your empty platitudes’.

Meanwhile, the rest of us, who are not ‘anti-trans’ but also kind of like women’s rights and would prefer not to have them trampled all over by people who don’t even grasp basic biology, sort of feel compelled to explain that we’re not actually big meanies and we actually object to that vilification. But that apparently is ‘hijacking the thread.’

And I believe that TWAW, so I support women's rights too, except trans women come under that umbrella.

Very simple.

lot of the anti trans and gender critical talk reminds me of the late 80s talk around gay people. I know some Miners won’t be old enough to remember those times. It was rough for someone to be openly gay or lesbian. I recall a gym teacher at my school being sacked because she had a female partner - it was felt that, because she was lesbian, she must automatically be a predator and was unsuitable to be around children. Obviously now we would be very angry if that happened in our schools
Interesting analogy - except people don’t choose to ‘identify’ as gay. It’s an innate state of being. And were you also aware that GRCs were introduced so that same sex people could get married? It was a way around the laws preventing same sex marriage at that time. No one believed when drawing up that law that the outcome would be that some predatory males would take full advantage, or that girls who were lesbian would suffer so much from internalised homophobia that they would claim to be straight boys.
Gay Youth deserve so much better than to have to pretend to be the opposite sex in order to be accepted.
Homophobia is still rife worldwide sadly.

I'm not anti trans. I just don't believe that men can change their sex or should use women's toilets.

😃 Abolish all.medical gatekeeping, the police, and prisons! That'll fix society!

You're a woman. Not a subset of your own sex.

I genuinely could not give a fuck about trans people and what they do with their life. Just like I don’t give a fuck about anyone else really

Absolutely, the who concept of “trans” is predicated on stereotypes- hell we have even had the whole make/female brain thing revived.

im flabbergasted that so many women have allowed themselves to be bullied into complying with such a dystopian system. Do they honestly believe these men are women? How on earth have they convinced themselves of something that goes against every measure of reality.

I don't believe lesbians should feel pressured to accept a ‘lady penis’ its homophibic, I'm an LGB ally. So, in considered transphobic for this thought! Its a shame cos I witnessed old-fashioned, traditional transphobia at a gig the other day! It was vile and upsetting 😔 but apparently I'm the same!

Except TWAM - the only way a human being can be a transwoman is to be male in the first place, and we all agree that sex is immutable.

Abolish snarky comments on public forums and we'll fix the internet.

Ok, well I’m an actual survivor of childhood sexual abuse, by my dad, which makes it very hard for me to trust any males. Am I allowed to speak on that, or am I using that as an excuse when I say I need same sex intimate healthcare for example? Am I allowed to have CPTSD, or does it make me transphobic?

Im also very confused by you first point. You seem to be saying by women having our own sport, prisons, rape crisis etc, we hold power, and unless we now give up those spaces and let men take them back, we’re acting like men?

Yes you are anti trans because you just don’t get it. Take your last statements for example:

And why do we tell children there is something wrong with them, why can't they just be kids and enjoy all things

some children are trans. Trans is a form of human diversity that has existed throughout human history and across cultures. Telling a child “something is wrong with them” does not cause them to be trans. Some children are trans regardless of what they are told.

I'm definitely not anti-trans, but I'm not pro-trans at the expense of biological women. I expect many feel the same.

'Spewing poison', in fact! 😂

I’m not frustrated. I’m annoyed. I prefer language to be clear and uncomplicated and not hijacked by meaningless, made up terminology.

One of George Orwell’s six rules for good use of language is If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

Cut out the “cis”.