To be upset with the schools punishment of 5 year old

[HelloWorld2577]

Evening all!

Just wanted a bit of advice, my 5 year old son’s behaviour is VERY challenging. He started a mainstream primary school in September as he is autistic, but high functioning and wasn’t diagnosed until end of year with ASD.

My concern is how my child’s school are managing his behaviour and whether the strategies are age/ASD appropriate.

Most days my son’s being taken out of his class, by the deputy head teacher. He’s spending 1-2 hours in his office at times, doing minimal interactive activities, and today my son told me he was taken into another class room and made to sit on a chair in the corner whilst other children were playing.

My concern is he is 5 years old! These strategies I would expect once in year 2/3 not in reception, and IMO excluding him from the class/activities etc doesn’t change his behaviour or stop him repeating it sadly.

Due to him talking and distracting others he isn’t even allowed carpet time with peers which he really wants to do. I just feel like they’re excluding him from everything and it’s really upsetting me as it’s not his fault! He doesn’t have a 1:1 yet as isn’t able to get EHCP until next year.

Just for reference the things he is doing are speaking when teacher is, opening the class door and going outside when it is learning time & generally being disruptive. I know it’s challenging but no violence etc.

AIBU to raise my concerns with the school? Do you think their strategies are age and ASD appropriate?

TIA x

What I would expect if my autistic child wasn't able to stay in the classroom would be for them to be with a familiar staff member and be supported to cover the same work the class is doing (or appropriately differentiated). Plus movement/sensory/special interest breaks as needed. The issue with being in the deputy head's office and entertaining himself is that he isn't accessing his education. I do think there are better schools out there but whatever you decide to do I also wouldn't be waiting a year to apply for an EHCP because he's missing out on his education now.
I agree with the PP who suggested trying fidget toys/wobble cushion etc for carpet time - you may have provide these yourself.

Reception children don't do a great deal of 'work' , 90% of the time is 'playing' and getting used school routines and expectations and developing socual skills.I guess he is playing with lego or something and they are maybe pulling out another child he likes , on a rotational basis, to keep him company.
Without funding how do would you imagine the school are going to produce a staff member to look after him?

Actually you can make a lot of changes by just applying good training. Of course it doesn't solve everything but it can have a huge impact.

Hilarious! You have clearly never taught a truly challenging child. Those are very basic classroom management skills that sadly do not work for all children.

Obviously this school doesn't have an available staff member which is why I said it's worth applying for an EHCP straight away. However my son will be getting some 1:1 hours without an EHCP when he starts year R (EHCNA in progress) so there's obviously a lot of variation between what different schools can do, I don't claim to understand why.

Apply for an EHCP yourself. They aren't able to meet his needs. https://www.ipsea.org.uk/pages/category/education-health-and-care-plans

I just want to remind people that schools have a send budget which includes £6k per pupil with certain needs. This is done by a formula but nevertheless schools get this £6k per certain children. This is supposed to be used to support send in classes so could go towards TAs.

The problem is that the general budget for schools has been cut so much the notional send budget gets swallowed up in just keeping the school afloat often.

To be fair, she did minimise the impact of her son’s behaviour by saying that ‘him speaking to his friends (during carpet and story time) is hardly disrupting them and is just frustrating for the teacher’ when actually it’s a lot more than that.

That aside, of course her son deserves the support he needs but the other children do too. Disabled children are important, but they are not more important.

This is a reception class we’re talking about and in the context of primary school children, the four and five year olds are by far the most needy and deserving of support. By your logic, the year sixes would be left to teach themselves because there are likely to be enough younger children in the school with SEND that deserve the support more.

Sometimes, autistic children can have the same level of need but if those needs directly conflict with the needs of another autistic child (which they often do) then the situation just has to be managed in the best way possible with the resources available.

All children have equal right to have their care and educational needs met and some children are not more important than others, especially in a school.

Edited because I quoted the wrong post. I was meant to respond to @HoorayHurrah
Sorry @Wgdici52828

All children have equal right to have their care and educational needs met and some children are not more important than others, especially in a school.

However some children require assistance to access learning that may come more easily to their peers.

@Zonder of course, but the poster I meant to quote implied that it didn’t matter if provision for a disabled child was actively detrimental to a non disabled child and I don’t agree with that.

Hi,

So I am give you information about how the system works from a schools point of view.

Even though there are two TAs, one is allocated to a child with PD. It is very rare now to have a 1:1 stipulated in an EHCP so even with an EHCP, your son will probably not get this unless VERY high needs. That is because it is not best practise for most children (unless a physical disability or for safety reasons).
Schools unfortunately cannot afford more TA support even as a general classroom TA. EHCP funding does not cover the costs of this. More and more parents are given the message that an EHCP equates to a 1:1 TA, usually from the local authority or other parents. This is sadly not true in reality.

I would check with your child's school as to why they are being taken out of class as there seems to be a disparity between their actions (disruption on the carpet) and the amount of time out of class. Either your child's behaviour us worse than you think or they are are needing more time to regulate out of class. Staff do not want children out of class for no reason so I would definitely be discussing this further.

Hope this helps!

Schools do not get £6k per SEN child. That is a misunderstanding. Schools get a notional amount of SEN funding, based on a formula which may or may not match the actual children in the actual school (generally, not). A number of councils have also been top slicing the SEN grant before it even gets to schools, to make up for lacking general education funding.

I must admit I'm starting to believe it is unrealistic for all children to be educated together.
It's simply not feasible for the number of children requiring 1 on 1 support in classrooms to get it, and even if they did it would still be highly stressful to manage for the poor teachers.
I'm starting to wonder if we don't need schools and classes specifically focused on the needs of children who are asd and adhd, and whilst it may seem suboptimal to their parents - the ideal of having everyone individually supported to attend mainstream is just a utopia.

School only ever worked as a concept because of the concept of collective education. So many things break down when we try and tailor everything to individual needs.

I specifically said it was a notional budget based on a formula. It should work out as n x6k where n approximates to a number of send children as worked out by the specific formula.

includes £6k per pupil with certain needs. This is done by a formula but nevertheless schools get this £6k per certain children.

This 6k should be used to top up the EHCP for children who are awarded one with funding for TA support.

I really have to disagree with this. I qualified in 1990 and SEND had such a low profile back then. We had very little training and very little conversation was about SEND back then. I taught in two very different LAs in the 90s and neither gave much time to SEND.

I think the line that 1.1 support is not good for most children with SEN is actually rubbish. I am a teacher and there are many children who would make progress and be happier in school if they had more support. The actual truth is that more support costs more and the LA do not have the funds to provide the support that many children need. TA's can step back when children are ready to be independent. They can't do this if there is no funded hours to start with.

@Zonder doesn't matter. It's not there. It's essentially fictional.

www.specialneedsjungle.com/send-law-research/assessments/does-the-school-have-to-spend-6000-before-an-ehcna-is-requested-for-a-child/

Training was shit but we knew how to deal with kids with additional needs ...Maybe I was lucky with some brilliant Senco colleagues.

The notional SEN budget is rarely actually £6k per child with SEN.

It is very rare now to have a 1:1 stipulated in an EHCP so even with an EHCP, your son will probably not get this unless VERY high needs. That is because it is not best practise for most children (unless a physical disability or for safety reasons).

This is what LAs and some schools would like parents to believe, but it isn’t actually the case. Although parents often need to appeal to get 1:1 detailed, specified and quantified in F.

EHCP funding does not cover the costs of this.
This 6k should be used to top up the EHCP for children who are awarded one with funding for TA support.

EHCPs can be fully funded, including the funding for a 1:1 where detailed, specified and quantified in F.

I agree that for some children this would be very beneficial but it's not available. However, for some, it is not helpful at all.

It might not be helpful for some but just reading the OP's situation, it is clear that her son needs support. There are many children floundering in mainstream under the banner of inclusion. I have heard all the arguments about children becoming too dependent on TAs. It is generally trotted out by the senco as a justification when the school has no funding for TAs and is often accompanied by a suggestion that teachers just need to plan properly. I have children with send myself. Inclusion is not working well for many children. There needs to be much more investment in additional support if it is to work. In the meantime, sharp elbowed parents will get better support for their kids whilst the rest flounder.

Children who need 1:1 will definitely have the support of the school to have one. Unfortunately, the 6k ish max funding does not cover the costs of the TA (even with the 15 hours required by schools). Not by a long shot. Therefore, If it is not in the EHCP then schools are just not able to provide it. Even in the EHCP, its a stretch. Ultimately, schools cannot afford it. That is the bottom line.

An appeal does not mean that the child requires it nor will receive it.

Children who need 1:1 will definitely have the support of the school to have one.

This isn’t always the case, unfortunately. The complete opposite in some cases.

Unfortunately, the 6k ish max funding does not cover the costs of the TA (even with the 15 hours required by schools). Not by a long shot. Therefore, If it is not in the EHCP then schools are just not able to provide it.

I didn’t post DC without 1:1 will receive it. There’s no requirement for schools to fund 15 hours before applying for an EHCP or for those with an EHCP.

Even in the EHCP, it’s a stretch.

EHCPs can be fully funded, including the support within it.

An appeal does not mean that the child requires it nor will receive it.

The vast majority of appeals, including for 1:1 in F, are upheld. Therefore, SENDIST judge that the majority pursuing 1:1 via appeal do actually reasonably require 1:1. If it is detailed, specified and quantified in F it must be provided. The LA is ultimately responsible for ensuring it is provided.

It isn't fictional. I work for an LA SEND dept and I know it is given to schools. As I said previously, the issue is that it gets absorbed into the main school budget and we know that budget just isn't enough to run a decent school on, with all the cuts that have been made for years.