To be upset with the schools punishment of 5 year old

[HelloWorld2577]

Evening all!

Just wanted a bit of advice, my 5 year old son’s behaviour is VERY challenging. He started a mainstream primary school in September as he is autistic, but high functioning and wasn’t diagnosed until end of year with ASD.

My concern is how my child’s school are managing his behaviour and whether the strategies are age/ASD appropriate.

Most days my son’s being taken out of his class, by the deputy head teacher. He’s spending 1-2 hours in his office at times, doing minimal interactive activities, and today my son told me he was taken into another class room and made to sit on a chair in the corner whilst other children were playing.

My concern is he is 5 years old! These strategies I would expect once in year 2/3 not in reception, and IMO excluding him from the class/activities etc doesn’t change his behaviour or stop him repeating it sadly.

Due to him talking and distracting others he isn’t even allowed carpet time with peers which he really wants to do. I just feel like they’re excluding him from everything and it’s really upsetting me as it’s not his fault! He doesn’t have a 1:1 yet as isn’t able to get EHCP until next year.

Just for reference the things he is doing are speaking when teacher is, opening the class door and going outside when it is learning time & generally being disruptive. I know it’s challenging but no violence etc.

AIBU to raise my concerns with the school? Do you think their strategies are age and ASD appropriate?

TIA x

they'd be calling you to pick him up early rather than having him elsewhere in the school. Not saying that's acceptable, but with current levels of very high need and very low capacity, it's not surprising.

That would be an unlawful informal exclusion. As you say, not acceptable. High needs and low capacity are not lawful and reasonable excuses.

I understand the rules. I and a lot of people on here are explaining the reality. It's all very well repeating the rules, but they need capacity to be met. This top-down approach isn't working without being met by bottom-up resourcing.

But I agree that repeating the rules is what OP needs to do! That's their best chance as an individual, it just isn't feasible for all to get the support they need in the system as it is.

All parents can and should (and should be supported to) enforce their DC’s rights. No parent needs to accept schools and LAs acting unlawfully. Despite what some schools and LAs think, lack of resources is not a lawful excuse for acting unlawfully.

Although I agree your son needs better support, I also agree that the other 29 children in the class deserve to get their education without being distracted and disrupted by your son. Unfortunately all too often the children who are quiet, biddable and keen to learn spend much of their day being ignored by staff who have their hands full trying to keep the more challenging children under control in order to be able to actually teach the class anything.

Not lawful excuse, but inevitable reason.

They're all bankrupt, if you hadn't noticed.

Trust me, I agree on what parents should do. But that doesn't make it add up. Do you have anything to say on national funding at all?

LAs could use some of the extortionate sums of money they spend defending indefensible cases against unrepresented parents on actually supporting DC. The public would be aghast if they knew just how much was wasted in this way. It is also amazing what can be done when enforcement action is taken. The money spent dealing with said enforcement action could be better spent by LAs. But, again, lack of funding does not excuse the unlawful behaviour.

Not all LAs are bankrupt.

Not all LAs are bankrupt.

Oh, what a time to be alive! Most are, if SEND funding and transport is factored in (under some measures they don't have to include this so look as if they're still in the black)

I was fairly sure you'd say it was 'wastage'... the usual cry of the austerity cheerleader. You're not factoring in all the young people who should meet the bar for extra support, but don't have the parental resource/energy to take it to tribunal. If you actually looked at the current need in school and the ratios it would take to support all children properly (special schools - remember them - had far higher ratios) the LA tribunal costs would be a drop in the ocean.

Or... those greedy LAs are funded adequately and are wasting it all. Hmm.

I'm glad you said this. That doesn't even cover your salary much less any additional materials required. I think it's wrong to build up expectations with EHCPs that simply don't offer the required funding - not that there's any funding to offer.
It would be better to be honest and say "based on the available funds' we are able to allocate x amount to your child which will cover x hours of support per week". Rather than have parents clamouring "we are entitled to this! It's the law!"

We don't live in a perfect world and no child can have an education fully tailored to them on state funds.

but don't have the parental resource/energy to take it to tribunal.

Perhaps you missed my previous post saying “and should be supported to”. Or did you just ignore it because it doesn’t fit the narrative you want to portray?

No, I hear all of your 'shoulds'. I'm contrasting them with the current reality.

Edited to add I AGREE with your shoulds! I just think there's a big one missing:
LAs SHOULD be funded adequately if expected to meet need!

Parents should focus on the SEP in F rather than funding. SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F can be enforced. And as LAs find out when enforcement action is taken, lack of funding, resources, staffing is not a defence in law.

What would you like them to do? If he is distracting the other children from learning he can’t stay in group/room?

It really doesn’t have to be either or. Saying it does is what schools and LAs try to use as an excuse to defend unlawfulness.

Parents can and should be supported to advocate and enforce their DC’s rights. That can be reality.

And if you actually read my post, you would know it isn’t that I am ‘not factoring in’ parents who for a multitude of complex reasons need support to advocate and enforce their DC’s rights.

For individuals yes. For everyone who needs it in the current system- no.

It can be for everyone. No-one needs to accept unlawfulness.

I'm going to stop replying now as I don't think helpful for the OP, who I think absolutely should be supported to advocate for the needs of their child.

I was making a very basic point that the current system is not funded to meet need of all children. For some reason @BrumToTheRescue is unable to acknowledge this. Perhaps magical thinking (that support can be procured without funds), or perhaps a saviour complex from the username?

Good luck OP.

The funding of the whole system is irrelevant to the needs and provision for individual children and young people because the law doesn’t accept funding as a valid excuse, thankfully.

The username is related to the children’s TV show Brum who often did come to the rescue on people.

Honestly it is not your job to consider funding anymore than any other parent in the class considers how much it costs to educate their child.

Having said that whether this is a reasonable means to improve behaviour actually depends if it works or not.

How long has the school been implementing this strategy. Has there been any improvement in behaviour. Has the behaviour got worse since they started this strategy. If the latter (assuming it has been trialled for some time) then the school need to come up with an alternative strategy & one that means your son is getting an education. I imagine the current strategy might help with some kids. I don't think it would have helped with mine as they responded badly to anything where there was uncertainty and disruption of routine.

I do think it helps if you keep an open and friendly dialogue with school, however, hard it can be at times. dh was actually much better than me at this. My ds's were shamefully a lot more badly behaved than you describe your ds but we still managed to keep on good terms with the school - on our side because we acknowledged the behaviour was unacceptable and on the school's side because it was clear they were trying to support my ds's and not just punish them.

I hope someone is referring the parents concerned to charities like SOS SEN and IPSEA for support in appealing against those decisions? It's not difficult and appeals have a very high success rate.

Bottom up resourcing is achievable, however. If EHCPs are properly specific but schools cannot provide the specified support due to lack of funding, there is a remedy by way of judicial review with which schools could support parents by providing supporting evidence. I doubt that the cases would even get to court if they presented that sort of united front.

I quite agree that national funding is inadequate. The problem is that that is not going to change whilst local authorities take the line that they would rather sacrifice vulnerable children than pressurise central government.

The reception children have a completely separate play area which is where he keeps escaping to and everything is secured by fences and gates with padlocks etc

That’s meaningless though, in that he can’t just let himself out of the classroom and play unsupervised. What if he trips while running, falls and knocks his head. Then you’d be crying out ‘negligence’.

I sympathise as I have one with ASD who was a bolter in the early years, they settled out of that in Yr6 though. But, I also have NT children and was uncomfortable with how they and their learning was impacted to degrees by kids in their classes with SN. It’s REALLY hard for schools to strike a balance where all ND kids get the education they deserve vs all NT kids getting the education they deserve. Current funding models mean someone’s going to lose out so all school can do is balance the see-saw as best they can. That means parents of SN kids not charging in demanding their kids are catered to such that the other kids are dragging in the ground, and parents of NT kids not charging in demanding their kids are catered to such that the SN kids are dragging on the ground. I really don’t envy schools having to deal with this.

Maybe not but the law needs to be changed - currently commitments are made which are materially impossible to implement. Hence it's not enforced.

It's my belief EHCPs should no longer exist with instead realistic but helpful assistance being provided. There's a total pot of funds for all children and the fairest allocation has to be made.

There is a lot wrong with the SEN system, but SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F absolutely is enforceable. And parents can, and should be supported to, appeal if their DC’s EHCP does not detail, specify and quantify the SEP reasonably required rather that accept unlawfulness.

Depends if it is working or not.
Sometimes a child needs to be out of that environment and needs quiet
Sometimes the children in that class need a break to concentrate.
It depends what the problem is, what the child is able to understand, the time frames, If sound is a problem, proximity, getting into personal space, other children are distressed, the needs of other children and their Send needs plus any medical needs, If the child needs a few minutes to regulate, if some activity within the class is a trigger.

If a child has an issue with getting messy and painting is planned you might take the child to listen to music, draw, sort, do a task, or access a special toy or aid.
There is no one-size-fits-all all. What helps a child regulate doesn't work with another child. What is a punishment to one child is a regulation to another.

Reading to one child can be a trigger, while another has an issue with milk being served or tidying up the room.