To be upset with the schools punishment of 5 year old

[HelloWorld2577]

Evening all!

Just wanted a bit of advice, my 5 year old son’s behaviour is VERY challenging. He started a mainstream primary school in September as he is autistic, but high functioning and wasn’t diagnosed until end of year with ASD.

My concern is how my child’s school are managing his behaviour and whether the strategies are age/ASD appropriate.

Most days my son’s being taken out of his class, by the deputy head teacher. He’s spending 1-2 hours in his office at times, doing minimal interactive activities, and today my son told me he was taken into another class room and made to sit on a chair in the corner whilst other children were playing.

My concern is he is 5 years old! These strategies I would expect once in year 2/3 not in reception, and IMO excluding him from the class/activities etc doesn’t change his behaviour or stop him repeating it sadly.

Due to him talking and distracting others he isn’t even allowed carpet time with peers which he really wants to do. I just feel like they’re excluding him from everything and it’s really upsetting me as it’s not his fault! He doesn’t have a 1:1 yet as isn’t able to get EHCP until next year.

Just for reference the things he is doing are speaking when teacher is, opening the class door and going outside when it is learning time & generally being disruptive. I know it’s challenging but no violence etc.

AIBU to raise my concerns with the school? Do you think their strategies are age and ASD appropriate?

TIA x

The legal test is the same whether parents make the EHCNA request or the school or another professional does.

This.

And what do you do when there are mixed
classes of Y1 and reception too.

True.

Do you think this is also manageable if 50% of the class has a non-EHCP SEND, including some EAL, no extra TA support? Because that’s what I’ve witnessed multiple times.

So have I. All I can say is it makes it more manageable than not doing it.

Until schools get proper funding it will always be so hard.

I think the term "punishment" is being wrongly used here. The child isn't being punished, it's just the school attempting to manage his behaviours to avoid the rest of the class being disrupted. It's not with a view of disciplining him.

They feel they have a choice between 19 children getting carpet time and 1 not, or 20 not getting valuable carpet time because the behaviour of one child is making the session stressful / unmanageable for the others. They may also feel that there's a knock on effect whereby if OP's son talks, the others talk too and they can't manage that with the resources they have.

I understand both sides - the funds are just not there to provide personalised support for all children with SEND and schools often have the choice between providing a compromised service to all or a decent service to a majority and no service to a minority. Different schools choose different options.

That's harsh for reception and I would be very unhappy. Carpet time could be a welcome reward for good behaviour since he likes it so much. At his age these practises are very hurtful and will destroy his self esteem. He needs a chart to work with to help him regulate the day an̈d be a point of reference to help the staff steer him and be a team with him to get him through. The chart has the hours of the classroom day. An important and key set of questions for your son are "what's happening now?" " Whats happening next?" And..."what's happening after that?" His add in to all of the questions is "What do I need to do?" For example, next is a listening task, I need to listen to the teacher. I need to listen for instructions. After that lunch is happening. I will need to get my packed lunch and my drink, ill need to queue when the listening task is over. Staff can use the chart to help him understand where he needs to be and what he needs to be thinking about, it calms disruption and helps him to get things right by signposting. There are lots of things to help along these lines. Get in touch with the autistic spectrum socities online. There will be many things he can try. Good luck and courage Mon brave.

That’s rubbish and untrue. You can apply for the EHCP yourself. Have a look at IPSEA for advice and template letters.

Re the EHCP, we initiated assessment for both my sons, so it is possible for parents/guardians to request assessment.

The school also had 1:1 for my eldest before his EHCP (a Statement of Educational Needs at that time) was put in place. He needed this because his behaviour was challenging, and when he was talking, distracted, making noises (due to sensory overload) and so on, he was not learning either.

The sort of support my sons had was: nurture group, eldest 1:1, youngest was part of shared support, speech and language therapy and circle of friends.

The possibly inappropriate interventions for my eldest occurred when he was in secondary school. There, he was often placed in isolation, but I must say, he was a strapping 14 year old with serious MH problems and I think school was the wrong environment for him. He left just before he was 15 to enter a CAMHS unit.

To conclude, your child needs support in class , in my opinion. He does not need to be constantly removed from the classroom.

I’m a TA in a class with relatively low support needs but I have 4 EHCP children to actively support in each lesson/small group. They have SEN needs including learning difficulties, speech and language, asd and adhd. We currently have another 4 children on the path for diagnosis for adhd who also require support. I spend nearly all of my time outside of the classroom either teaching them in small groups or 1-1, doing interventions and feedback. Their parents are very territorial about me and often complain if their child tells them I had to cut something short as another child was having a meltdown or needed a complete break. I feel caught in the middle, doing my level best to keep up with everything but there simply aren’t enough hours in the day! I am exhausted, as are my colleagues who have similar numbers of children requiring support in their classes. There is no money for extra support even though we know it is needed. The school can’t provide support without evidencing it is needed but I expect they are doing the best they can as a Deputy Head’s time is worth a lot more than a TA’s is so the Deputy Head wouldn’t be helping unless absolutely needed.

If those children with EHCPs have provision detailed, specified and quantified in F that isn’t being provided their parents should pursue enforcement action, via JR if necessary. The EHCP is a legal document and the school not providing it leaves themselves and the LA often to legal action. Funding is not a lawful excuse for failure to provide provision set out in EHCPs. EHCPs can be fully funded but LAs won’t do so unless forced.

Ehcps take forever

They don't. But they take longer if the ECHNA doesn't get submitted. The last one I got took 20 weeks and was finalised just before summer holidays. Just submitting another so will see how long that takes.

It would be interesting to see what the EHCPs for these 4 children say, and how much funding each includes, given that all 4 are being covered by 1 TA.

Unless someone has to appeal, which I appreciate some do, some more than once, the EHCP process is governed by statutory timescales with an overall timescale of 20 weeks. LAs often think this doesn’t apply to them. It does. Parents can pursue enforcement action if the LA breaches this timescale.

But that is once an EHCNA request has actually been submitted. What the OP posted was that the school said they couldn’t make the request until next year. Which is rubbish. They do not need multiple APDR cycles first. That is a myth.

I asked - 2 of them have £3000 funding and the others have £2000 and £1500 respectively so £9,500 total which is why I’m classed as a general TA as, although they take up most of my time, they aren’t funded for it.

This is what i mean..it's still 20 weeks you can't just get one instantly

True. But 20 weeks isn't forever. It's good for people to know there's a time scale.

They should also have the SEND notional budget so that would be enough to fund a TA between them all.

Agreed, but all our school TAs are funded by that which is why we are all overloaded as there aren’t enough of us to meet the level of need. Our school has a good reputation for SEN so we currently have quite a large percentage with SEN however, due to backlogs in diagnosis, lots remain undiagnosed and/or don’t yet have an EHCP. It’s definitely a government/budget/bureaucracy problem but we are stretched so thinly on the front line of things that it’s becoming unsustainable.

I agree with this. As a primary school teacher the fact he leaves the classroom and goes outside s tricky- it isn't what I'd call 'very challenging behaviour' (ie violence) but you need an extra adult to monitor and if necessary take them for walks around the school and movement breaks. If they don't have that extra adult it's very difficult. And the context is different than it used to be in that I'd bet that there are a lot more medium/high needs than there used to be in a class, some might not qualify for an ehcp at the current bar but in large numbers with very high child ratios it's unmanageable.

This aside, they need to pursue his ehcp as a matter of urgency and you need to be pointing out repeatedly that they are not providing him a full time education. In many schools (not ones I've worked in) they'd be calling you to pick him up early rather than having him elsewhere in the school. Not saying that's acceptable, but with current levels of very high need and very low capacity, it's not surprising.

The ECHP process is shocking. In my daughter’s school she has a class with very high needs and no-one has an ECHP as they’ve been rejected. It makes me so angry that the system is set up to fail. The only people who have funding have been those who have been willing to take the local authority to court.

So we have a situation where the kids with additional needs aren’t getting their needs met and the other kids are having a really shitty time too with the teachers run totally ragged. It s also meaning that other kids that need a bit of extra support but aren’t disruptive are totally flying under the radar.

Thanks for sharing- a really good concrete example of how current levels of support just don't touch the sides with current levels of need. Please look after yourself- you can only do the job of one person.

I agree with this.
But 30 children, not 20!

I think herein lies the problem. The school don’t have a plan in place yet so are employing measured that aren’t working or are too strict.

i think though you need the schools side so the view is measured as with great respect children sometimes remember things differently at that age.

On the other hand, they are also trying to put the needs of 29 other children into consideration. It isn’t right but without a plan it’s really difficult. My children have ASD kids in school who have thrown things, hit them, shouted out at all times, thrown desks, thrown food, kicked them, pulled their hair, ripped up other kids work etc to the point where the whole class has to leave the room until the kid calms down. It isn’t far to anyone.

I think a meeting with the school is needed.

Then the school should support those parents to request an EHCNA and appeal if refused. If provision is detailed, specified and quantified in F of other pupils’ EHCPs the school should not be using that provision to support other pupils. That leaves the school and LA open to legal action.

If the school doesn’t have enough funding to provide the provision detailed, specified and quantified in EHCPs, they should be pursuing the LA for more funding (because the LA is ultimately responsible for ensuring SEP in F is provided and that includes ensuring there is appropriate funding) and support parents to take enforcement action.

If the pupils with EHCPs do not have watertight EHCPs with all the SEP required, the school should be supporting parents to secure the provision that the child requires. Including via supporting an appeal where necessary.