To be upset with the schools punishment of 5 year old

[HelloWorld2577]

Evening all!

Just wanted a bit of advice, my 5 year old son’s behaviour is VERY challenging. He started a mainstream primary school in September as he is autistic, but high functioning and wasn’t diagnosed until end of year with ASD.

My concern is how my child’s school are managing his behaviour and whether the strategies are age/ASD appropriate.

Most days my son’s being taken out of his class, by the deputy head teacher. He’s spending 1-2 hours in his office at times, doing minimal interactive activities, and today my son told me he was taken into another class room and made to sit on a chair in the corner whilst other children were playing.

My concern is he is 5 years old! These strategies I would expect once in year 2/3 not in reception, and IMO excluding him from the class/activities etc doesn’t change his behaviour or stop him repeating it sadly.

Due to him talking and distracting others he isn’t even allowed carpet time with peers which he really wants to do. I just feel like they’re excluding him from everything and it’s really upsetting me as it’s not his fault! He doesn’t have a 1:1 yet as isn’t able to get EHCP until next year.

Just for reference the things he is doing are speaking when teacher is, opening the class door and going outside when it is learning time & generally being disruptive. I know it’s challenging but no violence etc.

AIBU to raise my concerns with the school? Do you think their strategies are age and ASD appropriate?

TIA x

This. Autism is so prevalent there's no excuse for schools not to access training in management of the needs of a child with autism.

What an unkind load of bollocks. At no point has OP suggested the school should do nothing and just let the other children deal with it. But OP’s son matters too, he has a disability which means he needs extra support and the school needs to find a way of providing that instead of inflicting harsh punishments which don’t help him manage his behaviour and exclude him from the classroom.

I absolutely hate this sneering attitude you see all the time from MN where posters prove they don’t give a single shit about neurodivergent or disabled children as long as their own precious darlings aren’t the ones struggling. ALL children matter, ALL children are entitled to the support they need to be able to access education and OP is well within her rights to challenge the school’s approach when it’s harmful to her son.

This is completely inappropriate for an autistic child of 5. I would have an urgent meeting with the head and the senco as this is not acceptable. If they are removing him due to distracting or behaving dangerously then it is still inappropriate for him to just be sat on a chair as a punishment. This school doesn't sound able to meet your son's needs.

To get an EHCP the school needs to show the child is already requiring a certain amount of TA support, and when the EHCP is in place they don't get the full amount to cover a TA salary, the school still has to pay for about half I think. And the EHCP might not even be full funding. So it's a big cost to the school when budgets are tight (and many schools are in deficits). So, to get an EHCP application going they need to evidence this, that the child is already needing X amount of support. It's hard on the teacher and the class when a general class TA is having to be a 1:1 (and I have experienced being this teacher, and losing a TA made things really hard for me), but at the same time we want to do our absolute best for the child with SEN. No perfect solution unfortunately.

The school does not need to show pupils get a certain amount of TA support before requesting an EHCNA.

The LA is ultimately responsible for ensuring the provision detailed, specified and quantified in an EHCP is provided. EHCPs can be fully funded, but LAs won’t do that unless forced.

This!!

I agree to an extent but this child is disabled and his needs are higher than the other childrens'. there needs are not as high as the ops child and so his needs must come first.If that means that there needs are not met all the time then that is something that has to be balanced against the high needs of this child which must be met.
The other children are not disabled and it is not ideal that they are disrupted but this boy is disabled and he should not be excluded.
i wish we lived in a world where the needs of disabled children came first. other children can cope better with a bit of disruption and some missed learning than this poor can cope with being punished for his disability..

If he is opening the door and may leave unsupervised, the teacher cannot carry on the class activities and will have to keep chasing him/ returning him.

Very compassionate.

This isn't accurate. A school needs to show what they have tried - that's the APDR.

And schools don't pay half. They top up by 6000. This 6000 is given to them in their notional SEND budget so they have 6000 per child who has additional needs before you get to the EHCP.

The only lawful threshold for an EHCNA is a) has or may have SEN, and b) may need special educational provision to be made via an EHCP and is set out in section 36(8) of the Children and Families Act 2014.

An EHCP can be fully funded, but LAs won’t do that unless forced.

Ok - so what is your solution/suggestion OP? So the rest of the class don’t get distracted? It’s a massive disruption for the rest of the kids in the class - which is also not fair.

He is not being removed from the classroom as a punishment. He is having time out to reduce his his overwhelm or to keep himself or others safe.

Even in special schools children are sometimes removed from the classroom. It is for their own benefit, not to punish. Allowing a child to become dysregulated because of the chaos of a reception classroom or because of the demands like sitting quietly on a carpet is not in their best interests.

This classroom sounds a nightmare for everyone. Clearly the teacher and TA cannot manage your son’s behaviour. It is not fair on him to be removed for hours but equally it is not fair on the other 29 children to be disrupted either.

You are not going to get very far if you go in to school demanding they keep your son in class. You need to ask the right questions and create a diary.

You say he is violent at home but not school, are they concerned that his behaviour could turn violent if he is not removed swiftly?

What methods do you use at home to refocus your child? Could you recommend some for school to try? Speak to school but with a view to working with them on different techniques. What can you provide (fidget toys etc) that may help?

Are there any parent support groups local to you? You will get much better advice from people who have actually been through it.

You definitely need to apply for an EHCP yourself. School may have to go through a set procedure before applying but you don’t.

It is really challenging of you have an entire class of small children to manage at the same time.

Sit him by her feet. Give him a special job, praise him for sitting quietly , sit him with the TA, remind him to be quiet, get him a fiddle toy or wobble cushion or special mat to sit on basically do her fucking job of educating him. (Ex infant/nursery teacher )

That is not particularly challenging behaviour...

Again, it comes down to training. The school staff need autism training. Things can be tweaked without costing a packet to make things work.

About the only thing I got told off for at school was talking too much. I mean I'm sure it can be wearing if someone is doing it repeatedly but it seems like some teachers can't even be bothered to try the minimum or attempt to treat children as individuals these days, it's just one size fits all, bish bash bosh, remove them from the class. I bet they haven't even tried what @BlackeyedSusan says.

Remember your child's rights don't trump other children's rights. If your ds won't sit still quietly they have to remove him because it's disruptive for others. It seems harsh but I'm guessing he is more disruptive that you realise. Accelerating a echp is step one and then consider if this is the right setting. My dc is autistic and never had an issue sitting quietly however would be very distressed by other children misbehaving, I'm wondering if they have an issue like that? (She ended up being taught in the school office as couldn't cope with disruptive behaviour from other students

No, we were better at Sen in the 90s. Even with larger class sizes...and a TA once every 6 days...

Though to be fair we had a lot of experienced teachers to learn from. Cheap NQT and lack of retention and a change of culture in schools has not helped.

Have they tried "backwards chaining" so he joins carpet time for the last few minutes and builds up the skills. What strategies has the teacher tried?

I worked with a young person in reception who was not suited for a mainstream environment but the parent was keen to have in them in mainstream setting as she thought he would like learn how to behave by modelling other children. Unfortunately, the classroom setting was too sensory triggering for him. The school were really good in providing alternative provision within the school. For example, there was a room next door to the class room where you could do 1-1 work with the child or sensory activities. He was a high energy child that really struggled to remain seated for 5 minutes so we did lots of movement activities outside of the classroom space. Though the parent still wasn’t happy as they wanted him in the class so he “learn how to behave” from other children. I think you need to discuss with the school how they can accommodate his needs so if he is unable to remain in the class can he go to a different space with a TA to do class work. It is not sufficent to just leave him sitting in the corner.

How do you know 'the other children are not disabled'? By ghe law of averages, other children will have asd and adhd too. Others may have health issues, be looked after children, others may be at risk, others may have a seriously ill parent, or be young carers, others may have recently split parents, or a new step partner or step siblings moved into the house, others may dyslexic, deaf, depressed.All have their own set of needs.In my experience in some classes nearly every child has an issue like this that staff need to be aware of and take account of.

The best training in the world is useless until funding is provided. The school doesn't just have spare staff lying around to spend two hours keeping a flight risk indoors.