To be upset with the schools punishment of 5 year old

[HelloWorld2577]

Evening all!

Just wanted a bit of advice, my 5 year old son’s behaviour is VERY challenging. He started a mainstream primary school in September as he is autistic, but high functioning and wasn’t diagnosed until end of year with ASD.

My concern is how my child’s school are managing his behaviour and whether the strategies are age/ASD appropriate.

Most days my son’s being taken out of his class, by the deputy head teacher. He’s spending 1-2 hours in his office at times, doing minimal interactive activities, and today my son told me he was taken into another class room and made to sit on a chair in the corner whilst other children were playing.

My concern is he is 5 years old! These strategies I would expect once in year 2/3 not in reception, and IMO excluding him from the class/activities etc doesn’t change his behaviour or stop him repeating it sadly.

Due to him talking and distracting others he isn’t even allowed carpet time with peers which he really wants to do. I just feel like they’re excluding him from everything and it’s really upsetting me as it’s not his fault! He doesn’t have a 1:1 yet as isn’t able to get EHCP until next year.

Just for reference the things he is doing are speaking when teacher is, opening the class door and going outside when it is learning time & generally being disruptive. I know it’s challenging but no violence etc.

AIBU to raise my concerns with the school? Do you think their strategies are age and ASD appropriate?

TIA x

I don't know what the answer is, but to be honest, if my child was in that same class I would not be impressed at their education being 'generally disrupted' by a 5 year old child over-talking the teacher, or distracting others, or seeing another child keep opening the door and leaving the classroom. I'm sure it's confusing and upsetting for the rest of the class. I also would not want my child to constantly experience such an example and to think it's acceptable in an educational setting.

It's sad that your child has some challenging behaviours but a whole class can't be allowed to be constantly disrupted by the actions of the one. I would be the parent raising with the school my concerns about my child's education being disturbed. I truly hope your child get the support they deserve soonest as we all want the best for our children. It must be very upsetting for you and I wish I had answers.

School called me this afternoon to inform me he had spent from 1pm until 2.45pm out of his class as he had to be removed due to not listening & going outside when it was inside time. They don’t typically inform me pre pick up but they wanted to have a chat about his behaviour being unacceptable, which I appreciated.

This isn't true. You can also apply yourself at any time. With a diagnosis they should be making reasonable adjustments already in order to meet his needs, they can also apply for higher needs block funding for money to bridge the gap while the EHCP goes through.

For a start they could stop lying about needing two cycles of evidence to apply for an EHCP. Also, see above re: ear defenders, wobble cushion etc...

You said he's trying to run out of the classroom though, that's a very severe safety issue - they are keeping him safe in the dep-head teacher's room, in an envirnoment that is calm and quiet away from the noise and audio chaos of this new environment that has massive social expectations of him.

You can feel free to PM if you want rather than back and forward with mean people butting in. He sounds exactly like my youngest at that age, ASD high functioning and didn't have a diagnosis or ECHP back then. His school was brilliant in handling it. We can have a chat if you like.

What demonhunter said.

Honestly I can see why they remove him. Circle time is a discussion (from my understanding) so it would be nigh on impossible to have if he was disruptive or trying to escape the room. Talking over a teacher and distracting other children is not going to enable other children to engage in circle time. He does sound like he needs one to one support. Can you discuss regular breaks around key points in the day?

Is he actually engaging if he’s disrupting? i can understand as a parent that you may feel like he’s not getting the benefit of schooling but if he’s not engaging then he probably isn’t actually absorbing much anyway. You can’t be learning if you are talking over others and trying to get out of the room.

Perhaps suggest he is allowed out for 5 minutes before circle/mat time to see if that will help? In DD’s nursery NT kids were taken out if they were disruptive to teaching, they do it in her ore-school too. It’s very much last resort after warnings are given.

Definitely raise concerns . This is damaging for your DS.. they need to find a better way . Does it upset him?

Are you working on these skills at home? Building on sitting and listening to a story without interrupting or talking.

No, it sounds like the OP wants her SEN child treated appropriately for his needs. You are contemptible.

@HelloWorld2577 not saying this is the case in your situation. But my ds will say things that are not as they seem.

Few days ago he told me there,was a friendship fallout and an adult spoke to them. I asked when was that. He said 5 months ago. When it was yesterday.

He told me at play time he had to stand near the wall for 2hrs. I said ah that's not good. And asked but did you get some time to play . He said yes. Obviously they don't get a 2hrs play time 😅

The school don't have a magic money pot (quite the opposite in fact) and are doing all they can right now until they are given the funding to get help. If that means the best they can do is to ensure he doesn't escape the building, then that's what's going to happen.

Not to mention, but most classes don't have class TAs these days or many extra grown ups that can just rock up to deal with children who can't stay on point.

And those that do have dedicated 1:1s in their classrooms already have a child to support. I imagine parents who fought long and hard battles to get their child 1:1 TA support would rightfully kick off and have a legal case if their child's TA was being taken away regularly to deal with another child such as OP's.

I'm sorry, OP, but schools are on their knees staffing-wise and without an EHCP or learning plans with people in place to implement them, at some point, the education of the other 29+ children in the classroom have to be taken into consideration if your child can't/won't behave in a classroom and are actively interfering with their learning.

I don’t use any other childcare just school and I work school hours! I have considered changing schools as sadly my sons school doesn’t have any additional SEN support like sensory areas or quiet rooms etc like a few other local schools have but I’m worried to remove him from what he knows! And I also have an older child who goes to the same school so logistically going to two separate schools to drop off and pick up would be a nightmare.

RE the ECHP the below is the SENCOs exact email to me -

‘With regards to EHCPs - this is a long journey and the earliest we would think of applying for one would have to be this time next year as we have to show evidence of at least 3 cycles of Plan, Do, Review (ILPs) before we could apply.’

Can people stop saying that schools are “lying” about needing cycles of support plans? It’s in the SEND code of practice that schools have to follow a graduated response and evidence how this hasn’t been sufficient to meet the child’s needs. They can’t do this without cycles of plans. Many local authorities put stipulations on schools of what they have to already have in place. This isn’t always legal but these demands are still put on schools.

Absolutely parents can apply themselves, and the threshold of evidence is often much lower than the hoops schools are forced to jump through. That doesn’t mean schools are lying.

Teachers and SENDCOs put so many hours of their own time and emotion into supporting children with SEND. To see it reduced to parents thinking that schools just lie is horrible. The current SEND support system is wholly inadequate and schools and teachers are breaking because of this.

You might see it as "sitting alone at a table", but that is a strategy used to support children who can't cope with carpet time. "Individual learning space" is the wording sometimes used. If he actually cannot keep still or keep from speaking over the teacher within his learning space, then, they may need to escalate him to removal from the classroom. He will still get focused learning from the teacher during their adult focus task, which may be better suited to him. Yes, a 1:1 will help next year, but he may still be removed during lessons for 1:1 learning support.

Does he have an OT or speech therapist who can support the school with strategies to help him to engage, understand what's expected of him in a classroom.
Are there any schools near you with ARP's? This is a seperate classroom with specialist teachers where they can go for small group support when struggling in main classroom, and then return to classroom when able to.

You need to log everytime he is removed and the reason. You need to apply for the EHCP assessment yourself. There is a template letter on Ipsea website. The senco is stating what the LA ask of schools. You are not bound by these rules. Apply now and then appeal when it is denied. In the meantime log every conversation or removal or incident. This will provide you with all the evidence you need when your appeal comes round. Also consider booking a private EP assessment.

As your focus should be, your priority is your child. Unfortunately for a school they have 30 children in each class to consider. Each class is likely to have 1 teacher and 1 TA if they are lucky, every time a TA has to follow your child because they have left the class other children are missing out on support. Where you say your child’s talking is not disturbing others just annoying for the teacher - how do you know what the other children are thinking they may well want to listen to the story being read. It does sound like yourself and the school need to meet and work out how best to support your son as what is currently happening doesn’t seem to be working but it that you need to remember your son is not the only child in the class and also a fair number of those children may also have additional needs.

This sounds like what would have happened for children with SEN in the 90's in primary school. I'd look for another school local to you with a better understanding.

No. This is absolutely not true. Also, you can request an EHC assessment yourself if the school won't. As in, right now, tomorrow.

Hello, I really feel for you and your son. It cannot be easy to hear that your son is having these difficulties at school and they are not dealing with it well. I have taught children who sound similar to your son. Ideally, they would have a trained 1 to 1 support who can work with then and you on strategies to help him move forwards. In fact, he needs this in order to access the classroom effectively. However, that is impossible without the funding of an ehcp. The school may well not be able to apply for this without showing the 3 cycles of plan do review - the rules set by local authorities are different in different areas. They will not be able to afford a member of staff for him without this. Without this support, it is almost impossible for the school to do anything beyond attempting to keep him safe in anyway they can. There are not enough staff in schools and they are all severely overworked. It is a shit situation for everyone - children, staff, parents. I don't have an answer. It's not ok, but it maybe the best they can do. Other, bigger, schools may be able to manage better, but they may not.

That seems far too long IMO to be out of the room. I understand he may need to be removed at certain times but I would think in and out and in and out again is the best solution, especially if he needs sensory breaks. I teach pre school and kids that don't sit still during circle time have to be removed as it can't go ahead otherwise but they are usually allowed play somewhere else. Or we might do something that helps them regulate just beforehand, high impact movements like star jumps or calming music on headphones, depending on the childs needs obviously. During circle time they may need a wiggle cushion or fidget. We always invite them to join and they learn very quickly what is and is not going to work. He is old enough to understand the rules and obey them and they do need to be very firm with him especially if he is trying to leave the room. I would think for other issues he also needs very clear and firm rules, but it might be really hard for him to not act impulsively and he may need constant reminders but they should understand that's the nature of autism at that age.

You can apply for an EHCP yourself which will shortcut the school processes.

In my local authority there used to be emergency funding for early help that could be applied for for children who came into reception with significant needs but without an EHCP.

It may be worth asking the school about that.

It unfortunately is common that if a child is disrupting the class due to their needs not being met then they'll be moved away from carpet time/sat with a TA (if there is one?) at the back or removed from the classroom.

Children who are flight risks can also be difficult to manage. Is the school a closed environment? There are pluses and minuses either way - most bolters calm down once they have run a bit but the worry is always they get out of the school site.