To be upset with the schools punishment of 5 year old

[HelloWorld2577]

Evening all!

Just wanted a bit of advice, my 5 year old son’s behaviour is VERY challenging. He started a mainstream primary school in September as he is autistic, but high functioning and wasn’t diagnosed until end of year with ASD.

My concern is how my child’s school are managing his behaviour and whether the strategies are age/ASD appropriate.

Most days my son’s being taken out of his class, by the deputy head teacher. He’s spending 1-2 hours in his office at times, doing minimal interactive activities, and today my son told me he was taken into another class room and made to sit on a chair in the corner whilst other children were playing.

My concern is he is 5 years old! These strategies I would expect once in year 2/3 not in reception, and IMO excluding him from the class/activities etc doesn’t change his behaviour or stop him repeating it sadly.

Due to him talking and distracting others he isn’t even allowed carpet time with peers which he really wants to do. I just feel like they’re excluding him from everything and it’s really upsetting me as it’s not his fault! He doesn’t have a 1:1 yet as isn’t able to get EHCP until next year.

Just for reference the things he is doing are speaking when teacher is, opening the class door and going outside when it is learning time & generally being disruptive. I know it’s challenging but no violence etc.

AIBU to raise my concerns with the school? Do you think their strategies are age and ASD appropriate?

TIA x

I would suggest he is having one to one time with the deputy head so he isn't disturbing all the other kids. Have you actually asked the school what they are doing with him or are you taking a 5 year olds word for it?

But yes, you can apply for an ehcna now yourself.

I'm not in UK but we paid privately for OT and it was the best thing ever. They listed strategies for the school to use so they didn't have constant trial and error. Worth every penny.

Many local authorities put stipulations on schools of what they have to already have in place. This isn’t always legal but these demands are still put on schools.

As you admitted yourself, THIS ISN'T ALWAYS LEGAL. Any school worth anything would know the legalities and navigate them accordingly.

Thr LA tried to tell me/my son's school that they were too inundated and understaffed to meet deadlines for an EP. No way was I accepting that. I pointed out the legalities, asked for their complaints procedure, mentioned my MP and the media, and 'boom' - suddenly we had an EP assessment booked for a few days' time.

You/ school can apply for EHCP any time. At the moment with not enough teaching staff ir money, the way they are dealing with it is fairly standard. Remove 1 child so 29 others can learn. It's not right but not many other solutions in mainstream.....

Hi OP,

I am a psychologist, I work in this area and complete assessments for ASD. I also work with schools and often contribute to EHCP plans.

How much have the school engaged with and spent time thinking about your child’s needs? I say this because the ‘behaviours’ you describe are really common (and to me, expected) parts of school with an ASD diagnosis, and things that the school need to accommodate as opposed to punish. I'm also just going to add here, given his age they will not have determined whether he may have additional learning needs which could compound and contribute. He is very young.

opening the class door and going outside when it is learning time - Does he understand the nuance and social expectation that he needs to stay and learn? Often for little ones with ASD it makes no sense to them that they need to stay. To be honest, why would you if you’d prefer to go and play. He needs a now and next timetable, maybe social story and probably set intervals where it’s ok to leave the classroom to help him with understanding and adapting to this. But also, given he’s 5 even without a diagnosis I think I would be extremely reluctant to punish that, we expect them to need to move around and find it hard to follow structure and rules at that age. They just need support and practice in most cases.

Talknig and disturbing other kids- exactly the . Sort of thing I would and anticipate for such a young child with ASD. sounds to me like he’s learning the expectations of a classroom.

He will need adaptations to be made and a supportive network within the school. He doesn’t need an EHCP for that, it’s his legal right (equality act). I often end up citing this when schools are not being flexible with their policies, particularly behaviour policies.

Punishment is not going to help- keeping him away from other children is going to make things worse. He very likely needs the play time to work on those skills with engaging and developing relationships with the other children. What he will need is lots of time, patience and support within the class. Additional supports and visual prompts to learn routines and rules as well as a personalised behaviour support plan which is flexible on school policy (in line with his legal rights)

If he’s disturbing others then that would be a good enough reason to consider whether he needs more directive support in the classroom to stay on task. EHCP will help get that next year but the school need to put additional resource in now if they aren’t managing without. I have worked with plenty of settings that buy in resource where there is a need. School need to be channelling their energy into why he is behaving in certain ways (and how it relates to the ASD) and then find another way of meeting that need instead of more ‘traditional’ behaviour approaches.

I'm sorry that you need to push and advocate in this way for something that should just be a given and understood by people who work in the sector.

Schools can know that what the local authority are stipulating isn’t legal, but they have no avenue to challenge. Schools can email and disagree but this isn’t paid attention to. Parents can apply and parents can appeal. Schools have no right of appeal.

Thank you for EHCP advice. I will discuss with the Senco tomorrow. RE if the grounds are secure, yes! Thankfully. The school is a new build, very large 90 children per year school. The reception children have a completely separate play area which is where he keeps escaping to and everything is secured by fences and gates with padlocks etc.

I would love it to be as easy as being able to “navigate (the legalities) accordingly”. My job would have a lot less heartache

His Teacher informs me every day of incidents which require him to be removed from the classroom by the deputy head. What they do in that time is relayed by my 5 year old mostly such as the teacher will tell me that the deputy head had to remove him and spend some time with him and then my son will tell me in more detail how he spent that time. My son like most kids his age has got no concept of time only activities so the time scales I’m mentioning (1-2hrs) are all provided by teacher.

I absolutwly agree with you, and this is how it should be, but its just not always possible. The support that schools can buy in, might be someone to work with them for an hour a week. And there might be a massive waiting list. And then the people keep changing, so it's starting again with each new person to build the relationship. And if they try to do it by putting budget towards a support assistant in house, they may not even be able to recruit at all, let one someone suitable. Absolutely he shouldn't be bejng punished, but I can totally see that all of this might not be punishment at all, but instead a way of trying to survive.

As a teacher, here are some things I can tell you…
You absolutely can apply for an EHCP at any point.
The ratio in reception is 1.30 so if your child is wondering off who do you think can collect him?
A child talking during carpet time is disruptive. How would the other children learn?
Lots of people have low expectations of reception. By the time children leave reception they should be able to write several sentences and read short age appropriate stories. For example “The fish swam in the pond. He was looking for food. The fish jumped up high. How do you expect the other children to learn how to do this if your child is distracting them?

I suspect the school is removing your child from the class because he is not coping as he doesn’t have the right support. He absolutely needs an EHCP and you can apply for one. Sorry you have both been treated this way.

My heart is breaking this isn’t the solution for your child. I’d be looking to move school as this school really doesn’t get it.

I could of written this about my son, although the school have been more proactive and very supportive.
What I will say is get him an EHCP do it ASAP, I waited to long for my son and unfortunately he is not doing so great in school (now in yr 4).
Your child needs movement breaks,sensory feedback,and an adult to direct him back when he is Dysregulated.
It's a long hard road but once you have one it can help so much.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out- I was going to say but forgot to add that it sounded to me as though the school know what would be useful and unfortunately are unable to provide it. Ubfortunately this sits at odds with the approach health and other services would take which is that the environment needs to change and adapt to meet the needs of the individual. It is also, unfortunately, my experience that in meetings having a professional able to point that out tends to mean that action is taken quickly and possibly more support provided than might otherwise be.

I think if I was faced with this situation I would be questioning how much the school were trying to support and how motivated the school were really to make the changes needed. And I would be considering whether a move to a more supportive space (such as an ARP). If the school are not able to provide the resource to meet the needs of a child they need to be clear about that.

Whatever the school should be doing to work out and provide strategies and support for your child, if they can’t do it they can’t do it. It’s probably upsetting for the teacher to know that she can’t meet the needs of a child in her classroom, but without 1-1 support it’s going to be impossible to provide what you child needs at the same time as providing what the other 29 children need.

I understand how heartbreaking it must feel to them that your son is being excluded from things, but you sound like you are underestimating the disruption your son’s behaviours could be having on other children. If he’s talking to them when they’re meant to be listening then it is disruptive to their learning, even if if it’s not physically harmful to them. Your sons needs and the other children’s needs are in direct conflict with each other and sometimes the only solution to that is to change the situation enough that the problem cannot occur.

I have worked in Early years for 25 years, in about 7 different schools and have never worked in or supported a Reception class with a 1:30 ratio. There has always been a teaching assistant, bringing the ratio down to 1:15.

This is complex to unpick. There are a lot of assumptions one this thread - 1 is there is a TA in the classroom. There may not be as your DS doesn’t have an EHCP and I know many classes who don’t have one.

If he is running outside, does the teacher leave the classroom or leave him etc.? That alone is a big problem.

Hope you get it resolved, think only a conversation with school help.

OP, if you want some advice around applying for an EHC needs assessment, have a look at SENDIASS and IPSEA. They should be able to provide some guidance. We also have a local charity for children with neurodivergent conditions which is really helpful, and a local Facebook group - try looking at “EHCP in [insert county].

We have recently had a meeting with someone from the council’s SEND advice service (it’s ASKSALI in our area, not sure if available elsewhere) which was quite helpful in terms of really probing what the SENCO and school could offer without an EHCP in place. Have a look at “your county SEND local offer”.

You absolutely should apply for an EHCP yourself, don’t wait for the school to do it as what they have told you is not correct. Schools will often quote local policy rather than follow the law.

IPSEA are a fantastic SEND law charity and you can use their model letter for your request www.ipsea.org.uk/making-a-request-for-an-ehc-needs-assessment

Definitely not appropriate at all.

schools are stretched but some schools will attempt to meet his needs more than his current school are. How some schools get away with letting children down I don’t know but some will
definitely try harder than others.

if you are determined to keep him in this school you may have a battle on your hand and I would suggest keeping notes on anything and everything,
anything relating to your child’s autism (home and school) any interactions with school about him (transcriptions or if possible emails etc). Schools log behaviour so you need to be armed with your own evidence so they if you’re arguing with them you have your own evidence.
context the school and give them a chance to change and if not let them know you are taking it further. The council should have an SEN team and there is also foster for complaints but you have to go through the school first and give them a chance.

The school is massively letting your son down.

Support should be needs based. He clearly needs additional adult support and personalised provision.

The school is talking absolute rubbish about the EHCP. I suggest you contact your local SENDIASS and ask for their advice.

It's also worth googling 'IPSEA' abc looking at their standard letters etc fit applying for an EHCP.

It's highly likely that your first EHCP needs assessment request will be turned down, most are. However, that then gives you the opportunity to go for mediation.

Its great to hear you’ve worked in lots of supportive schools. Legally, the ratio is 1.30. There is no requirement to have two adults. With rising SEN needs and virtually no budget this is very challenging for schools to maintain.

This. School governor here and was at a mtg today discussing this very thing. Several teachers with children who don’t yet have EHCPs (so school doesn’t have extra funding for them) and are without TA support.

I completely agree theoretically with everything you say and feel passionately about it. When you said that schools need to put the extra resource in while there’s no EHCP, we just don’t have that resource anymore. Budgets are in deficit. Gone are the days of TA’s in every class.

When you say schools need to be clear if they can’t provide the resources to meet the needs - schools are not allowed to say that as it is then discrimination as every child is (rightly) entitled to an education. The highest needs child could turn up on day 1 in reception, and schools would somehow be expected to meet need with no additional funding or staff, while it takes probably at least a year to get an EHCP in place.