It's an in law one...

[inlawproblems]

First of all, I must start by saying that I love my PIL... 99% of the time.

DH has two brothers. One of them lives in the same town as us with his wife and children, and the other lives five hours away with his wife and child. We get on well with the one who lives five hours away but we haven't seen them for over a year due to the distance. They will be visiting next weekend and we are looking forward to seeing them.

Things aren't so great with my other BIL and his wife. His wife hasn't spoken to us for 18 months since our daughter was born, for a really stupid reason. He is backing his wife up but we don't think he really believes they are in the right. Before my daughter's birth we all got on well.

Literally everyone thinks they are being completely ridiculous and the thing they are upset about is utterly trivial. To avoid drip feeding, they are upset that we named our daughter a very common top 10 name which also happens to be their daughter's second middle name.

Anyway. We have invited the visiting BIL and his wife and child for Sunday lunch next weekend. We were also planning on inviting PIL.

When I mentioned this to FIL two weeks ago he said he was rather hoping that we would do something all together. I said that until BIL and SIL acknowledge how hurtful their behaviour has been and apologise to us, we don't want to have a relationship with them. FIL said they will never explain or apologise, and so I said in that case we won't be seeing them. He wants us to just let it go and play happy families. I made it very clear that doesn't work for us.

Today PIL came round for lunch and everything was normal, nobody mentioned next weekend. And then an hour or so after they'd gone home, MIL put a message on the family WhatsApp group saying they want us all to come round for cake next Saturday afternoon and Grandma will be there too.

We have not replied yet. We don't want to go. We feel that we are being strongarmed into seeing them and pretending everything is normal, when what we want is to have a discussion. (They have refused multiple requests from us to meet and talk.) PIL are banking on the fact that if we go next weekend we won't want to cause a scene in front of Grandma, or be unpleasant to SIL who is two months postpartum. (I wouldn't piss on her if she were on fire at this point but I recognise that the optics of having a go at a woman who's just had a baby in front of the entire family aren't great.) They're right about us not wanting to make a scene in those circumstances. That's why we don't want to go.

AIBU?

Thanks for reading if you made it to the end of this!

Inlawproblems thank you for clarifying for me.

I explained earlier in the thread why we chose that name and why we didn't really have many options that worked for us.

They didn't consult us on their choice of names for their children, so why should we consult them on our choice of names? It has literally nothing to do with them and doesn't affect them in any way. Why consult them when they don't get a vote?

OP, I have been in the situation with a narcissistic brother in law and sister in law and honestly, when I look back, almost the worst thing about it was that they brought out the worst in us. You find yourself being baited all the time and, if you're not careful, dragged in to the competition, jealousy, drama and all the rest of it.

Also, there is absolutely no point in trying to reason with people like that, whether to understand them or make peace with them as nothing will ever be enough.

If I were you I would try to be grateful that they have shown you so clearly what they are like so early on so you don't need to waste any more energy on them. You've done what you can, made it clear you meant no harm, and now can do no more. I understand it hurts that your parents in law seem to just have ignored this behaviour but I don't think it's fair to expect them to get involved.

In your position, and knowing what I know now, I would just go along, be polite and rise above it. It's not her winning at all.

In my case, the narcissistic in laws have eventually split up after years of on again off again which utterly messed up their kids, she seems happy enough and less competitive without him, and he remains a raging alcoholic who is beginning to reap what he has sowed throughout his adult life. I feel incredibly sorry for their children, and unfortunately we're not in a position to offer much support as we went very low contact although remain friendly at family functions.

Fly above it.

When an emotional wound as bad as this is inflicted, those who are invested in the people involved but not part of the problem would achieve peace and harmony much more quickly if they acknowledged the pain and assisted with composing occasions in a way that allows both parties to put their best foot forward.

Sweeping it under the carpet and just asking everyone to mask the issue just increases resentment and makes it worse because someone is having to sublimate their reactions unfairly.

In practice of the pils acknowledged to both parties it was a difficult situation and made a way for it to work such as hold an open house so one party could leave as the other arrived with a bit of overlap for GC photos, that would ease things along much more diplomatically.

All this lets pretend it's fine is understandable in a way because people are uncomfortable, but doesn't actually help at all.

I haven't read every single post as this thread is long so forgive me if I'm missing something. My take is that you are not unreasonable to be pissed off with the sil and dh's brother, but you are being unreasonable in trying to get his parents to actively and openly take sides and to make more drama of this than need be and to allowed a whole slew of relationships to be ruined from one difficult person being difficult.

The stuff about the middle name is obviously ridiculous. Without knowing the person involved I don't know if this might be a generally difficult person or whether it might be someone suffering from some kind of depression or something that is making them react to things in a disproportionate way.

To expect the grandparents to cut off babysitting is very unreasonable indeed and looks like you are trying to escalate and make a big drama out of something that isn't of their making. It would also punish the children for something that is nothing to do with them.

I'd say go to family events, let your DH and his brother rebuild their relationship, let the kids all get along together, but just give her a wide steer. You can rise above without having to have much of a relationship with her if you don't want to. Trying to get full acknowledgement and an entire family mobilised around this or else cutting off large sections of the family is both disproportionate and punish all the wrong people.

I suspect this has built up in your head due to the time it's been going on and you are probably feeling angry and manipulated by the grandparents. But they are in an awful situation and I can't see that anything they will do can make this better. Taking sides in a very public way or in an extreme and punishing way (like cutting off babysitting) might just set off even worse stuff.

I don't think she will have "won" by you behaving well. I suspect instead she might end up feeling a bit ashamed of herself.

Well it would be the decent thing to consult them if you are using one of their names.
I would do this.
It is a bit thoughtless that you didn't do this but it's not the worst thing in the world.

You sound nice OP. Fair, sensible, kind but no nonsense.
I’d feel the same. SIL and BIl are being dicks, you’ve attempted to reach out and that’s it now. Who needs it? It’s DHs family so if he wants to go and see them then good luck to him but why should you get any more involved? I’m sure you’ve got plenty going on without trying to deal with this. I’d just draw a line and move happily on.
Obviously PIL are going to keep trying and who can blame them really if they are loving parents. Of course they are going to keep getting everyone together so I think you might be a bit U on that. You’d be doing the same if your grownup kids were at odds I expect. Just have to gently decline each invite.

We're not asking PIL to do anything except respect our decision not to attend family events with BIL and SIL at the current time.

I think what has riled me and DH is that I very clearly said to FIL two weeks ago that we did not feel comfortable having a big family get together where we all pretend to get along while the situation is as bad as it currently is, and so we would see them/other BIL separately.

I thought the matter was closed.

Then yesterday they spent several hours with us where they did not refer to next weekend at all, didn't say, "look, we know this situation is upsetting for you and you don't want to see them right now but this is so important to us, will you please reconsider?" but an hour later they dropped a cheery message on the family WhatsApp group inviting us all to a great big happy family get together with the clear subtext being that if we don't show up and pretend everything is fine we will be ruining everyone else's fun.

I love my PIL dearly but we both feel they have handled this appallingly. If they don't want to get involved, that's their decision, but they do need to respect our feelings about the situation and not try to force us into playing happy families when we are anything but happy.

They're never going to apologise OP, and they're being fucking ridiculous...but are you really going to sacrifice your kids' relationship with their cousins over this?

At some point all the estranged cousins will find out the reason their parents stopped them seeing each other and do you think they'll appreciate it from any of you? You may initially have been "right" but that position can be lost.

There have been about a million threads on this very topic debated at length on mn and the general outcome is always that a name is a name and duplicates in a family aren't an issue. Unless the name has some particularly unusual or special qualities of some kind.

Because the OP wants the PIL to take sides, that’s why. Even talking above them withdrawing childcare from BIL/SIL to get some sense into them.

This is so nuts and she soo doesn’t understand that it’s just not her place to dictate this to PILs that I really suspect there is a lot more than OP is not telling us… because she doesn’t have self awareness

The OP just does not come across as a reasonable person and very much of a drama queen (look at the language she uses “horror”, “shit on my family” - the language just not warranted by the NC from your SIL/BIL. Horror is having to interact with a peadophile relative or mass murderer invited to family gathering, not this 🤦‍♀️

plus she does change the story so for all we know she could have said something casually racist or otherwise offensive at the lunch and that’s why SIL went low contact with her, with baby name just an excuse. or SIL somehow overhearing the OP saying that BIL shouldn’t have married her. We don’t know but that’s just this feeling of OP not being a reliable narrator.

I had many many miscarriages before we finally managed to have my first child. Every time I was pregnant there was no waiting until the second trimester and then cheerfully announcing, because I never felt "out of the woods". Basically I would say to PIL, "I'm pregnant again" and they would know not to offer me wine or serve me food pregnant women can't eat (which is unfortunately a lot of stuff in this country), and every week I didn't lose the baby we would all get a little bit more optimistic.

For us the only element of surprise, the only happy announcement that we ever got to do, was, "Baby has been born, she's a girl, her name is X."

We wanted to keep just a little something to ourselves, the way normal couples get to do, and just choose our baby's name and announce it without having to ask anyone's permission beforehand. SIL is not the queen, nobody needs her approval in order to name their children. If she wanted her daughter to have a super exclusive name then maybe she should have looked outside the top ten.

Seems to me that op has done everything possible to avoid the cousins losing each other... She's only one half of the equation though and the other half has put up an ice wall. Attending pil invite isn't going to get that relationship back while sil and bil don't want to know

Like I said earlier in the thread, we went to quite some effort to get our children to their son's birthday party and they didn't even show up or text us thanks for his gift. My son behaved as though he had never met his cousin before, unsurprisingly because a year is a long time in the life of a three year old. I don't think occasional awkward lunches are going to create a close relationship between cousins so that ship has unfortunately sailed, not for want of trying on our part.

WHY though would you refuse to go to the events??? That’s where you are unreasonable. They want to be NC with you, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t be one room twice a year if you were reasonable

you can continue to go and just not talk to them but still be civil, like British people do.

@inlawproblems that's heartbreaking op. 💐 Who would rain on that parade? No wonder you are incredibly hurt.

Maybe she will. Given how much op has attempted to avoid this stalemate so far, I wouldn't be surprised if she did.

Still quite raw right now though I would imagine.

Op is providing her love and attention to the family members who want it in other ways in the meantime.

This is a way forward. Accept they will never apologise, brush it under the carpet and resume civil if not friendly relations.

Your insistence on an apology is what’s prolonging the estrangement. Accept you won’t get one. Let go of your hurt. It’s not helping you.

They have no control over their daughter-in-law

This mess is not of their making.

Stop holding them partly accountable

Them deciding they want to be estranged from us is what is prolonging the estrangement.

We've accepted that. We just don't want to be forced to pretend everything is fine when it isn't.

Quite rightly

This is pathetic

Just get on with your lives and stop upsetting PiLs

Why does it matter if you're all in the same room If nothing is going to be said?

Every family has fall outs and petty squabbles. What you do is grin and bear it for the other relative's sake. So go, see the nice bil, see granny give the unpleasant in-laws a wide berth. You can't let this crap spoil it for everyone else.

Nothing being said is precisely what the problem is.

This. I'm in a similar position, OP. Two members of DH's family came down to stay just after they had married. The bride was spectacularly rude after three glasses of wine - she thought she was being subtle and no one had clocked it, but two of us did, and it was clearly aimed at me. We spent a year asking them to come back and discuss what happened, but they claim it had never happened and haven't been back since. The very fact that they won't discuss it is in itself a tacit admission of guilt - an innocent person would be anxious to clear things up as soon as possible.

Both of us have been under pressure to just forget it and move on. But I come from a very emotionally abusive childhood where my parents trampled all over my boundaries, and one thing I've learned is that when people like that get away with it, they will only escalate their bad behaviour over time. No one should be forced to be pleasant to someone who has treated them with thinly veiled contempt. Plus sweeping things under the carpet only allows them to continue with the same mindset.

Fortunately my DH is completely on my side on this. He's appalled by how they have both behaved then and since, and knows full well where the contempt she showed came from. There were several other things that occurred during that visit that have cemented his opinion of her as not a very nice woman, and he's as keen to avoid her in future as I am. Sometimes you have to let people reap what they sow.

Just let it go. Move on, smile, wave and look like the bigger people. Treat them wirh the insignificance they deserve.