It's an in law one...

[inlawproblems]

First of all, I must start by saying that I love my PIL... 99% of the time.

DH has two brothers. One of them lives in the same town as us with his wife and children, and the other lives five hours away with his wife and child. We get on well with the one who lives five hours away but we haven't seen them for over a year due to the distance. They will be visiting next weekend and we are looking forward to seeing them.

Things aren't so great with my other BIL and his wife. His wife hasn't spoken to us for 18 months since our daughter was born, for a really stupid reason. He is backing his wife up but we don't think he really believes they are in the right. Before my daughter's birth we all got on well.

Literally everyone thinks they are being completely ridiculous and the thing they are upset about is utterly trivial. To avoid drip feeding, they are upset that we named our daughter a very common top 10 name which also happens to be their daughter's second middle name.

Anyway. We have invited the visiting BIL and his wife and child for Sunday lunch next weekend. We were also planning on inviting PIL.

When I mentioned this to FIL two weeks ago he said he was rather hoping that we would do something all together. I said that until BIL and SIL acknowledge how hurtful their behaviour has been and apologise to us, we don't want to have a relationship with them. FIL said they will never explain or apologise, and so I said in that case we won't be seeing them. He wants us to just let it go and play happy families. I made it very clear that doesn't work for us.

Today PIL came round for lunch and everything was normal, nobody mentioned next weekend. And then an hour or so after they'd gone home, MIL put a message on the family WhatsApp group saying they want us all to come round for cake next Saturday afternoon and Grandma will be there too.

We have not replied yet. We don't want to go. We feel that we are being strongarmed into seeing them and pretending everything is normal, when what we want is to have a discussion. (They have refused multiple requests from us to meet and talk.) PIL are banking on the fact that if we go next weekend we won't want to cause a scene in front of Grandma, or be unpleasant to SIL who is two months postpartum. (I wouldn't piss on her if she were on fire at this point but I recognise that the optics of having a go at a woman who's just had a baby in front of the entire family aren't great.) They're right about us not wanting to make a scene in those circumstances. That's why we don't want to go.

AIBU?

Thanks for reading if you made it to the end of this!

What like them turning up at a family event? She says she chats an apology, then changes the narrative later on.

She's done that the whole way trough the thread.

One minute she's friendly and really nice to SIL, going out to lunch.

Then she's saying BIL should never have married her. That their relationship was only ever cordial.

Op's efforts have been fruitless, the sil and bil may as well have written 'you are dead to us' in six foot neon letters for all the difference it would have made, so it would be pointless trying to continue to try to heal things - it would be banging your head against a brick wall... The healing isn't wanted by the other half in the situation.

There comes a point where you have to accept the relationship is over.
And it hurts, why wouldn't it.

The pil is another issue, they shouldn't suffer for this. So op is doing the right thing making it so they aren't caught in the middle by not creating difficult family atmosphere at occasions. Making sure the relationship is maintained directly not at joint occasions for now, while it's raw. Maybe in time they could share space without issue, but things aren't there yet.
If my children had been poorly treated by someone I wouldn't expect them to pretend that were not so, everyone's needs and that includes emotional needs can be met with diplomatic understanding and kindness by everyone.

In this thread there are a lot of people expecting op to do all the bending, when actually she's done more than her fair share of that already.

Think it's time to accept this relationship is unviable and diplomatically work round the fact that you share mutual loved ones... Which is all that op can do now. The rest of the family should understand and at most hope for a thaw from the half who have rejected all other options.

I actually think there is a lot of internalised misogyny in the idea that each of the squabbling DILs are as bad as the other...implying an equivalence that isn't there, that women argue with each other and are all irrational troublemakers who cause family rifts for the sake of it. When we can see that the situation here is a lot more nuanced.

More misogyny: the idea that their wives are to blame for the DBs' fall out. When it is clear that the OP's DH reached his own view without any undue influence from the OP. Also the SIL seems to be getting most of the blame here when in reality the BIL has done nothing to help mend this.....and has put the blame on the OP despite the fact that the choice of name was a joint decision with the OP. But it's always the the woman's fault right?

I wouldn't go. I do feel sorry for the PILs though, it is 100% not their fault.

You say all you want is to make up, so why not go, pull BIL/SIL aside and say 'congratulations on lovely new baby, hope you're all keeping well, it feels like now would be a good moment to try to get over this rift. I'm sorry you're upset about the choice of X's name but from our side your behaviour has been very hurtful and we are so sad that our children can't spend time together. Can I suggest an apology on both sides and we move on?'

People entrenching their positions never goes well. If you insist on them apologising without you doing so or vice versa you'll never get over it. It doesn't matter if their position is completely unreasonable, that's the only way you can move forward. I get that you feel you apologising would be pandering to them but insisting on an apology both ways holds the boundary.

If after all that they refuse to apologise or ignore you then you can tell PILS you tried and it is now time to work on SIL.

Incidentally your DH sounds like he was horrible to your BIL who was arguing with SIL to support you - uour DH shut that door by not supporting his brother who was trying to find a middle ground. Maybe if DH acknowledge that to BIL then at least bil and kids might visit all of you even if sil stays stuck.

I’d be replying on the family WhatsApp with “given that SIL is still sulking - despite our efforts to resolve - over the use of a child’s name which she doesn’t own, this would not be a enjoyable situation, so we’ll pass thanks. Look forward to seeing some of you as arranged.’

f*ck em - had similar with my SIL over a perceived slight on a FB post and I can’t be arsed with the drama, so I just don’t engage.

Why do people just make shit up here?

Wait until you know ffs.

I am baffled at how anyone reading your posts OP, assuming a basic degree of comprehension, could conclude you're the bad guy.
Your SIL sounds deranged, you sound entirely normal.
The PP who said, the difficult thing is to start, is right though. You're never going to be friends with her, but getting through family events with icy courtesy is going to be necessary.

Then you have your answer OP and seem resolute in your position. Not only that, you are a united front with your DH.

Why would you then look for validation from strangers on the www? Unfortunately I don't believe you are going to get that from this thread.

It also sounds unlikely that you'll ever get the apology you are looking for from your BiL and SiL. The resulting family schism will in that case remain unbreachable and may eventually drive a wedge between you and your parents in law, too.

You might well consider that this is their own doing and their own decision. But isn't this throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Be very sure this is what you want for the future, for your DC and yourselves.

You’re becoming the bad guys because you are now being just as petty as your BIL & SIL, can you really not see that? Yes, they were pathetic, but if you can’t let it go without a formal apology and want mummy & daddy to tell them off, then you’re being childish. Yes, an apology would be nice, but who really cares, just grow up and be civil at family gatherings. If they act like dicks you will have tried and cannot be reproached.

Wow @inlawproblems

So much mention of "winning"

I think you have gotten far beyond original slight and are now on a life long mission of being right and winning.

It is ridiculous. And, to be honest, so are you.

Get over yourself and just go to things with them.
And try and mend fences.
Even if they didn't do it on your timeline or to your satisfaction it might be time to stop this absurd drama!

Just about to type the same thing.
SIL has you dangling like a puppet while she controls the strings.
She sounds bonkers
You go into neutral, forget who WINS and decline the game.
You are currently totally enmeshed in this
Find your values
Her behaviour reflects on her, don't respond or change yours .
Certainly don't play happy families, she sounds like someone to keep at arms length, in a box marked nope
Nope to drama, expectations or giving them information about you.

You cannot change who people are

They behaved badly… you are now behaving badly.

Absolutely pathetic

I feel sorry for your PIL and visiting BIL.

Honestly you 'wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire' is EXTREMELY strong reaction to have over a name... no one owns a name.

My SIL has physically assaulted me in the past while drunk, yes I was mad for a while and we hardly hang out like friends anymore but even I don't have that extreme a reaction to her.

My family member who I hadn't seen since childhood used my DS birth announcement (after 10 years of infertility and loss) to get in a dig that we 'copied their name' (didn't even know they had a kid, haven't seen them in 20 years) and you know what its literally a non issue. They can die mad about it if they want but why would I care that they are mad?

You will alienate only yourself. They have trumped you, there actions show everyone actually thinks YOU are the one being ridiculous and overstepping.

You are throwing demands that effect THEIR family. They are a family unit and that is their child and grandchildren that they are including, they also included you. You insisting the others be left out and then refusing to go when invited is on you, you are cutting your own nose off not them.

I'm confused.

It would be considered OTT to send a WhatsApp message to your SIL to acknowledge that her young child is having/has had a operation and send best wishes. So you didn't.

But you did send a heartfelt letter to BIL explaining the reasons why you decided to choose the name you did for your baby.

That makes no sense.

Your pil are not getting involved and i think thats best. You all should be able to attend a family get together in your pils house. You are coming across as being petty in expecting your pils to ask / insist your bil & sil to apologise.
Whether your sil's reason for not talking to you is valid / not, you need to accept they don't want communication with you. Bring your children to the get together. If a cousin makes such a remark again , just explain to your child that it's such a lovely name and isn't it nice your niece has it as a second name.

I'm tipping SIL REALLY likes that name & BIL doesn't, hence it was tagged on as a 2nd middle name. Then you got exactly what she wanted - so, your SIL is punishing your BIL, you & your DH & children are just caught in the fallout & she can't now make up with you because that'd mean her letting BIL off the hook. He's siding with her because it's diverting her negative attention away from him. I'd remain NC with people like that, they bring nothing but misery & drama. I'll not go into my woes with my SIL from hell, but needless to say, I'm speaking from experience.

I agree that this is not about winning, that the OP's SIL & BIL may never change their position and the OP and her DH may need to decide how they are going to deal with that.

I don't agree that they are 'as bad as' SIL & BIL, there is no equivalence here. And the OP has already tried to mend fences. What are you proposing: that she try again, be rebuffed and hurt all over again?

I feel sorry for the PIL but I don't think that is the OP's doing and it is not on her to fix this and 'be kind/the better person' whatever. Hopefully in time it will be possible to peacefully coexist and attend family occasions together; I am not sure though that this is the right occasion. At bigger occasions like weddings landmark birthdays etc with extended family & friends it is possible to have more distance.

But this sounds like an intimate family grouping, at a time when feelings are running high. There could be a risk of things kicking off.....and if so then I suppose that will all be the OP's fault too.

Wow. My notifications have blown up this morning. I am not going to go back and read through everything because last night's pile on was quite horrible to experience.

Just wanted to pick up on this part:

You say all you want is to make up, so why not go, pull BIL/SIL aside and say 'congratulations on lovely new baby, hope you're all keeping well, it feels like now would be a good moment to try to get over this rift. I'm sorry you're upset about the choice of X's name but from our side your behaviour has been very hurtful and we are so sad that our children can't spend time together. Can I suggest an apology on both sides and we move on?'

This is pretty much exactly what was in my letter to BIL, which he didn't acknowledge.

Perhaps the answer is to go and say exactly that, in front of everyone. And then if they don't apologise there will be zero doubt about who the bad guys are and we can refuse to go to any further events with a clear conscience.

I am not going to go back and read through everything because last night's pile on was quite horrible to experience

AIBU in the late evening is usually nasty. You'll get far more reasoned replies this morning!

Quite a few (including me) can see you've done nothing wrong, have acted completely within reason, and don't think you should cower to SiL's tantrums.

You could but I wouldn't want to ruin a family party with that. It has the potential to take over things. Plus, if the name choice is the only thing that's caused the rift then yes sil is irrational, but it's more likely that there's another element to it that you aren't aware of. Did the name have significant meaning to sil? Do you know why they chose that name in the first place? I'd only do that if you're prepared to potentially ruin the day for everyone else there and to find out that there's more to it and potentially end up with egg on your face. I think it's better to let it go for the sake of the party and then address it separately at a later date.

I think you need to move on from this OP.
You said you were never close, saw each other at family events and were civil. You are upset your SIL did not send a message in whatapp to congratulate you on your new baby. Yes this would have been the nice thing for her to do. But she sounds like she had a lot going on and maybe it just slipped her mind. She had young children, one baby who had majory surgery 3 months later ( it's likely the baby would have been showing worrying symptoms, attending doctors appointments etc in the lead up to the surgery). She was probably under a lot of stress and slightly irked that you used her childs middle name ( you may think it's silly but it was obviously important to her for whatever reason you do not know).

You were never close and then you started sending letters, demanding meet ups to discuss their issues with you. Your tone in a lot of your posts comes across as aggressive and confrontational. They clearly do not want to engage with this.

It seems like they are happy to continue with the low contact relationship. They will be civil at family events, your bil will like your whatapp photos. They do not want a confrontation and you have to get over this.

It's clear you would like more of a relationship with your SIL and you are upset that she doesn't. That's understandable but you need to get over this for the sake of everyone else. If you continue to hold this grudge unfortunately you will come across as the bad one here.

SiL had sent a thumbs up emoji in response to the birth of OPs baby (because she was sulking) so with that cold-shoulder context it was OTT for OP to then message her.

OP sent a letter to the BiL once she found the issue out because they had history of a positive, good relationship and OP had the best of intentions to smooth things over.

Perfect sense.

Not sure why we're the vile ones when they created the problem and have rejected all our attempts to fix it.

Maybe they want to be the ones to fix it. Maybe they don’t like the boundaries you have so clearly laid down and your insistence that you are the ones to take the lead on fixing it, in your time frame, in your way, according to your values.
Maybe they prefer to do it their way, without a confrontation, rather than your way where they are forced to account for themselves before grovelling an apology…all before you will forgive them.
Maybe they want to just go along to a family event with all of you there and hope everybody is normal and nice and then when they feel reassured about that, they can move forward to reflecting about what has happened.

OP, you (and your DH) sound so very entrenched in your approach to fixing this. Why not take a quiet step back, go along with no expectations on them, and see what happens. If it brings about a reconciliation in the end, does it really matter how you got there.
I honestly think it would be the right thing to put your hatred towards her to one side and try to go to please the other family members.

Everybody in the family appears to know that it’s SIL not BIL who is the difficult one and it’s usually lack of self esteem that creates the sort of reactions she has shown to being upstaged by the quiet engagement announcement and by you both ‘stealing’ the name.

Just going along for an hour, - smiling, staying civil, and being in the same space for a short time to celebrate another family member, might be the start to helping along a reconciliation, even if it’s not entirely the way you imagine it should have been.

Just one other comment; Is it possible your in-laws are a tiny bit scared of you and scared of your anger over this issue and that’s why they didn’t dare mention their invitation in front of you both the other day, - and instead messaged it as soon as they got home. You seem so set on seeing it as manipulation when they probably also see your laying down of firm boundaries as making this burden on them even bigger.
It can be so hard to be perfectly fair in-laws to two strong-willed DILs when all you want to do is love them both equally.
This fall-out will be much harder on them than you realise. It would make their day if you could just put your own feelings aside and go along for an hour to please them.

I know you are really fed up of trying to resolve it, but please try thinking about it from a different perspective. Encourage your DH to be open to forgiving his brother instead of taking offence.
Surely that should be the objective. It shouldn’t make you feel manipulated to do that. Take the lead in putting it behind you without an explanation and without an apology if you can. Nothing to lose in giving it a try.

You have already said this in your letter.
It's clear that they do not want the confrontation or want to apologise.
You need to get over this and stop bringing it up. You need to go and be civil. If you read the responses here you will see that is what the vast majority of the people are saying to you. Go, be civil. Do it for your kids and your pil's. Yes it will be uncomfortable for you but it is the right thing to do.