To hope all the reform voters take a hard look in the mirror?

[Tukmgru]

I have to wonder how you live with yourselves. It’s like you know you’re awful people, not just filled with spite and hate but also motivated by it. I genuinely am so baffled how you can sit here on this forum that is largely about supporting others through difficult times - perhaps you’ve found help and comfort in the various threads MN has to offer, and then you go ‘yep, fuck everyone else’.

My aunt was a BNP and then UKIP supporter, and a grifter par excellence throughout her life, and all of her arguments were the same as the arguments I’ve seen on here by Reform voters here. 4 million people went out there to declare ‘I’m a complete dickhead to everyone around me but want everyone to hand everything to me on a spoon’

Just fuck off.

(I’m not even a labour or green or whatever voter, I just think you’re awful people and deserve nothing but contempt)

And this is all the fault of the Tories for not managing integration. It is not the fault of the immigrants.

Completely agree and I did not vote reform either

Of course people can vote for who they wish. And rightly, nobody can stop them doing so. That doesn't stop it being a really horrible way to vote

This!

Totally agree with you. Theres also a difference between immigrants and unvetted, young male asylum seekers couped up 2 to a room in a hotel for months / years. Which is what we have on our doorstep. Horrendous for them but also a negative impact on our already deprived town in terms of drain on mental health resources, fighting with each other, walking around in gangs at night and incidents (well documented and police involved) of harassing young girls.

I did not vote reform but dont be surprised as to why the people living with this shite on their doorsteps do.

@Tukmgru

What is a bigot? Here are the first 4 definitions I came up with on Google.

Cambridge Dictionary:

"a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life"

Merriam-Webster:

"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

Dictionary.com:

"a person who is intolerant or hateful toward people whose race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc., is different from the person's own"

Collins:

"a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race"

I would suggest OP that while you have your lovely polished mirror out you take a look at yourself. Because you sound very much like a bigot from where I am sat. It always amuses me how many towards the left of the political spectrum self-congratulate on their amazing kind and tolerant beliefs whilst shouting racist, bigot, stupid at anyone who dares to hold a slightly different position (or calls their political opponents "scum" - looking at you Deputy Prime Minister...)

For what it's worth I very much dislike NFs presentation - he spends way too much time enjoying winding up people who disagree with him (and not in a particularly erudite fashion either) and not enough time actually developing his arguments, which while amusing for a minute or two soon becomes pretty tedious. If he put his mind to it he would be far more politically effective with a different style of discourse.

Thank good for first past the post. 4 million people voted for them.

What the hell? People can vote for whoever they want. Stop trying to silence the ones with different views. May be just analyse properly why people are voting for them.

This! Only white are ratio racist?!

Rather than bashing those who voted differently to you, it's important to look at why they made such an extreme choice.

It's a bit like Hitler/Nazi's- people assume he was a military dictator who took power by force. No, he was voted in to power in a fully democratic election, he was of course a despicable man, but people felt so disenfranchised, so desperate that they saw no other option than to vote him in. He maintained power by giving people handouts and cars (Volkswagen was originally his car company) and tvs and radios.

Reform came out of nowhere, only a few months old and managed to get nearly as many votes as the lib dems, which is really concerning. Only about 35% of voters actually voted for Labour, so the rest were either not convinced by them or so distanced politics that they didn't bother to vote. 50% of those who voted Labour didn't actually want them, they just didn't want the Tories back again. So that brings it down to only about 17% of the country strongly believe in labour. The rest either believe in someone else, just didn't want the Tories back or couldn't be bothered to vote. In this climate it wouldn't be hard for Reform to increase their vote share at the next election unless Labour make some pretty huge improvements to public services whilst not over-taxing the squeezed middle. KS has a monumental job ahead of him and I only hope he is up to the task.

there are those who suspect that Labour’s policy of VAT on private schools’ fees is motivated by spite.
I’d say it’s the premier example of political spite actually.

Remain are nothing to worry about for the moment, but if our powerful and spiteful government squeezes too many too hard then they will turn to these weird new political parties and that’s a potential problem for the future

It always amuses me how many towards the left of the political spectrum self-congratulate on their amazing kind and tolerant beliefs whilst shouting racist, bigot, stupid at anyone who dares to hold a slightly different position (or calls their political opponents "scum" - looking at you Deputy Prime Minister...)

Agree with that @WrigglyDonCat

Did lecturing and insulting someone ever change their mind?

I live in an area with very high levels of small boat arrivals which has cause a lot of bad feeling and the outgoing tories couldn't give a fuck. There was NO effort to help locals understand or become comfortable with the idea that we essentially have a large refugee camp right in the middle of our small residential area and no thought given to all the issues that can cause -for the local people and also for the residents of the camp who have nothing to do all day apart from hang around outside supermarkets and in parks and smoke weed. No extra support given to local services such as GPs or dentists. No attempt to help these people integrate other than what a couple of charities organise. For years my deprived part of the country has taken large numbers of low skilled immigrating people and asylum seekers who don't/can't integrate. They don't get settled in cosy cotswold villages, they get sent here.

It's no wonder people in my area voted reform because we have large groups of young men who don't speak English wandering around aimlessly, and a right wing media who tells the families around here that these men are a danger.

I haven't got a problem with the asylum seekers, every one I've seen while out walking has either kept himself to himself or has attempted to practice his English with me. Seem like nice guys. I've had more issues with and feel more nervous around groups of white English men. I voted labour. Hopefully they make good on their promise and deal with asylum applications quickly so these people can stop just existing in limbo in accomodation that's one little step above a prison camp. The residents of the camp and the local area have all been failed by the Tories.

Branding every reform voter as racist and stupid is lazy and shows an astounding lack of critical thinking.

There are millions of people in the U.K. who are living in poverty - damp and inadequate housing, poorly educated, poor diet and health, stuck in low paid work. This is precisely where Farage places himself. He knows that where people feel disaffected and left behind, it’s human nature to want to blame something or someone. Farage exploits this. It’s the ‘they’re taking all our jobs’ mentality - it’s easier to point the finger than to take responsibility for the fact you haven’t got the life you think you should have. Extremism breeds amid generational poverty.

The sad thing is, Farage despises those in poverty and the poorly educated. He just manipulates them as vote fodder.

It’s very easy isn’t it to stand there and proclaim you will ‘take the country back.’ Reform say they will ‘turn the boats back to France.’ Ok. But they have to actually find the boats first! What are they going to do - have police permanently floating at regular intervals in the channel?

Once migrants have got to Calais it’s too late really. It’s far too simplistic to just say ‘send them back to France.’ Illegal migration is only going to increase as climate change takes hold - it’s a global issue that’s going to require global solutions (or part-solutions) - not silly quip populist headlines.

Here’s Farage claiming he is a ‘man of the people.’ What an utter joke. He wants to give tax breaks to people who use private schools ffs! How many people in Jayswick use private schools?

Do people who voted for Farage seriously think he could actually live among them for 5 minutes - once the cameras stop rolling? Will he be purchasing a chalet or other crap housing in his constituency now he has his seat? Or will he just stride in, inane grin like the Cheshire Cat as usual - but in reality he’s just holding his nose for the cameras. He despises the ‘little people’ (as he refers to them). It’s all carefully-curated photo-ops in a pub with a pint and a bit of flag waving with the elderly. That’s literally all he has to offer. He doesn’t have to offer realistic or ‘fact checked’ policies because he’ll never have to put them into practice.

The man was educated at Dulwich College and he was a nasty piece of work there. He has no plan for anyone other than himself. How people can see through him, I don’t know. He is truly vile. Fascist in a red waistcoat with a pint.

Anybody who happily voted for a "party" that didn't allow it's members to vote on a leader or on it's manifesto....ooops sorry "contract", thinks Farage will actually do any work as an MP and believes that a "party" run by millionaires is "anti-establishment", is quite frankly, deluded.

You could volunteer in the community to help others.

Its one of the reasons I dont support electoral reform. It leads to splintering & instability.

YABU. Some Reform voters are as you describe, but I think the majority of them feel utterly disenfranchised and fed up with working long hours to live in squalor and survive on food bank donations. Same with Brexit: a vote against a system that grinds them down. Same with buying a lottery ticket: having a small sliver of hope even when the odds are miniscule.

Writing all Reform voters off as racist thickos fails to acknowledge the very real societal problems caused by the stark inequality in this country.

Edited to add: I also think that Farage is a very dangerous man. The new Labour government will need to improve people's lives ASAP to squash him.

I find the policies of reform utterly abhorrent and I still reckon Farage himself has been bankrolled by Putin for decades - and one day it will all come out.

However, it's all very easy to have liberal attitudes when you're safe and cosy and your job isn't under threat. There are still towns where you can walk down the high street feel threatened by gangs of kids on street corners or lingering in bus stations whose culture may not have be as supportive of women's freedom, say - relatively speaking - as ours. I grew up in a pretty multicultural area - lots of Indian, Italian, Pakistani and Chinese people, quite a few folk from Eastern Europe, even a good percentage of UK born Caucasians. And while it was rough, I didn't feel the need to make myself invisible if I needed to pop to the corner shop for a load of bread after dusk. Now I wouldn't even stay in a hotel there, it is so intimidating.

One of the major issues with the current immigration system is that there are very few legal affordable routes and once here many are not allowed to work. Officially anyway. Hence the hanging about.

So, while I don't agree with Reform, I do understand why they appeal to some people. In addition they are focused on LOCAL issues, not things that are, for most people, utterly abstract and far away, like climate change or what's going on in London.

I may be worried about the rise of the ultra right wing - across much of the world, not just here - but it's not like the Tories have been a bastion of centrist thinking for a long, long time. I will always look back at this election as the time when, finally, the right wing vote was split enough to give other parties a chance. The vote on the left has always been split, that's part of the problem.

Now if we can only hope that Proportional Representation is introduced this time round, we might stand a future chance of a parliament slightly more representative of the actual population, not mostly White Oxbridge via Eton, Winchester, and Cheltenham Ladies College.

And if the Lib Dems can avoid any more stupid rose garden bromances and ludicrous alliances with awful in laws they might finally go back to being a viable alternative at some point. Not that I'd trust them not to turn coat again though...

Genuine question (as I had a very similar experience to the person you were replying to) how does a government promote integration from Westminster?

My 3 year old daughter was excluded in the local playpark for being white, I was called a shut for wearing knee length shorts in summer, my older daughter experienced racist abuse at school and children talked in community languages in the playground so she was left out. So yes, we did same and moved

It’s that comment that would make me vote reform. How dare you judge people’s intellect by who they vote. Perhaps try to understand why 4m people voted reform. Perhaps read about Birmingham where next election, Labour will not win and you will have an independent standing for non local/U.K. racist issues. Perhaps read about non integration, schools totally over whelmed by non English speakers. Then judge again. I certain am worried that in 20 years time, women will not walk around some areas in the U.K.

I didn’t vote reform but can absolutely understand why some people did, especially in certain areas. In fact, you’d have to be quite thick not to understand this.

On top of that Farage is an excellent public speaker let’s be honest - he was much better than any of the others at the election debate and is always clear, calm and confident during interviews. I can totally see why people would vote for him.

I live in an area where there are lots of refugees who aren’t integrating. They mix with each other but not with the rest of the town. It’s split the community in half. We now have a whole new community of people within our own home town who want nothing to do with us, the people who actually built this place and whose families have lived here for centuries. There’s also a lot of resentment because they don’t work and we do. I didn’t personally vote reform but I can understand why others did.

I stopped reading The Mirror years ago.

I understand your frustration. I'm also horrified and quite sad. Though I'm not sure if posts like this help, or if they just widen the division.

I think that Reform ultimately offer simple "solutions" to very complicated and nuanced issues, and that appeals to an angry subset of the populace who no longer feel represented by the mainstream parties. I am sure some of those people genuinely read and understood Reform's full manifesto and were in agreement (not something I can personally understand on any level, but we're all different and entitled to an opinion). I suspect plenty didn't, and just heard "no more immigrants" and that was sufficient for them.

I hope Labour do a good job and over time the division in our society can be reduced. It does feel frightening though. We know where we can end up when the far right are legitimised...

‘They’ don’t work and ‘we’ do.

What, none of them work at all, but the white British all work? Really? Hmmm. What town is this?

“ the people who actually built this place and whose families have lived here for centuries‘

If families stay in the same place for ‘centuries’ no wonder you feel as if you’re falling behind. This is the definition of inertia.