To let you all know :Jane the mntter held keir to acct, brilliantly on radio today and it's viral.

[JaneVapeman]

Unfortunately I can't link to her clip, but she's a star and a hero. She pinned him down and cut through the "twaddle". I am a swing voter and would have been proud of a mntter holding any mp to account on an important issue like Jane did. Jane is/was even trending on twitter.

💥

Exactly. No one should ever have been given the right to falsify their sex on their birth cert.

Was the person convicted?
If so, I judge that as a success and practically a miracle as almost no rapists are.

The police didn't investigate initially because the hospital lied.

We know your opinion on the news report.

Any comment on the woman who was gaslit about her rape for a year?

Prioritising the rights of transwomen over the safety of women is exactly why we don't we don't want men however they identify in women's spaces.

I hope posters are reading you posts and understanding that this is precisely why some women won't vote Labour.

Which is why I think the whole news report is trash

This is so typical...

TRA: These things never happen.

GC: Yes they do, here's an example.

TRA: Fake news!

We can acknowledge that many transgender women are currently and have always used female spaces?

You want a legislative change to criminalise them for doing this - correct?

And you think that this legislative change will stop predatory and criminal transgender women from attacking women in female spaces?

And it will be policed, how?

The Police did investigate and were blocked by the hospital because according to them there were no men on the ward.

It is not a trash report but of course you want to think that because it goes against your dogma and in that you are just like the hospital.

There are words for both you and the hospital.

Perhaps if you thought about this for a second you may see that the one makes the other far more likely.

What does it matter when you consider what is at stake for women and girls? Being polite, kind and polite hasn't got us anywhere. I mentioned in another thread Matthew Syed's column in The Times which expressed concern at the way Labour pander to those that make the biggest fuss, no matter the rights and wrongs. So as JKR said, they 'stamped out our polite little candles... now we've come back with flamethrowers'.

Well your definition of rape comes from The Havens (SARCS) website not the police:

The legal definition of rape is when someone puts their penis in another person's vagina, anus or mouth, without the person's permission.

The police don’t make the laws they just apply them.

And we have been tackling that. For decades. But it's a long process.

So in the meantime, while we continue to work to eradicate the cause, women's single sex provisions (which is more than just physical spaces) are a mitigation to give us safety from the thread and respite from the grind.

And just as we need those pysical spaces where men aren't, we also need spaces in the law, in culture and in language that do not include men so we can share, analyse, understand and improve what it means to be female in our society.

So if you suddenly have a magic wand that solves male violence and marginalisation of female people and makes these female only spaces redundant then hell yeah, I'm all for it (and wondering why no one has waved it before). But unless you have that immediate fix, all you are doing is throwing distractions to stop women talking about what they need in practice to navigate the unfairness in an imperfect world.

Some of us, including me, have wondered who is driving this. This thread may cast some light, though you may have to have some idea of the history and people involved to make it clear.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5107886-melanie-field-the-former-egrc-expert-behind-labours-womens-rights-policy?page=1

"Which is why I think the whole news report is trash

This is so typical...

TRA: These things never happen.

GC: Yes they do, here's an example.

TRA: Fake news!"

None of us are saying 'these things never happen'. Like I don't say 'there are no such things as predominantly Asian grooming gangs'. What we're saying is that when you have news media that's got form for culture war/racist/xenophobic reporting, you'll notice that they use their platform to present and amplify stories in such a way as to stir up hatred and fear of minority groups - including LGBTQ+, immigrants, asylum seekers, etc.

Many transgender people are now, and always have been, using the biological sex spaces that they feel are appropriate to them

So men have been violating our boundaries for ages in your view - that is not ok though is it?

JKR wants to know:

"Do biological males with gender recognition certificates have the right to enter women-only spaces? It's a simple yes/no question, @UKLabour. Given that you intend to make it easier for men to gain said piece of paper, women have the right to an answer."

https://x.com/jkrowling/status/1807035407680360787?s=46&t=WHoOZZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

So do I, to be perfectly honest. Are £5 Lady Tickets going to be even easier to get and will they come with a guaranteed Access All Areas stamp?

Personally it's not about toilets for me. The reality is, any man, trans or not, can walk into a womens public toilet, rape a women, and probably nothing will happen to them anyway so there is already nothing to stop men doing this. It's the prosecution (or lack of) of rape and other offences against women that's the problem here.
For me, with the trans issue, it's about placing man in women's spaces. Hospital wards, prisons, sports etc. A law that says men/trans women, shouldn't be in women's toilets/changing rooms would be great and might give office/sports centre management some clarity and teeth to move them on. In public toilets, I can't see it making a blind bit of difference to women's safety though.

So a man is admitted to a women only ward where he rapes a woman. This is then denied by the hospital because this man is a TW so is a 'real' woman.
The victim is gaslighted by the NHS for a year about this - called a liar essentially - after which the police investigate and a prosecute.

And you izimbra are whining about the media sources of this story? Not the horror of the story itself? How fucking DARE you?

Brilliant, this is the question

Keep going until they answer

She is cutting to the chase here - will they answer?

The thing with public toilets, changing rooms etc though, historically, is that women were able to challenge a man entering these spaces. But this is now increasingly unacceptable and will soon be unacceptable by law.

We can acknowledge that many transgender women are currently and have always used female spaces?

No, we cannot acknowledge that they have always used female spaces and the current situation is far removed from 2004 when the GRA was passed.

You want a legislative change to criminalise them for doing this - correct?

Yes, there appears no other way to ensure it.

And you think that this legislative change will stop predatory and criminal transgender women from attacking women in female spaces?

It will work like any other safeguarding measure and it sure will help.

And it will be policed, how?

The same way other laws are policed.

And you izimbra are whining about the media sources of this story? Not the horror of the story itself? How fucking DARE you?

It's fucking incredible isn't it @ActivePeony ? How low some people can go with their determined hatred, dismissal and dehumanistation of women.

"For me, with the trans issue, it's about placing man in women's spaces. Hospital wards, prisons, sports etc. A law that says men/trans women, shouldn't be in women's toilets/changing rooms would be great and might give office/sports centre management some clarity and teeth to move them on."

Given that there are only 50K transgender women and 5.6 million businesses in the UK, it's an issue that many companies will never have to deal with. I'm guessing what you want is for any business with a transgender employee to tell them they're banned from using women's spaces at their work? And you think this will have marked impact on women's safety in those specific offices and nationally?

"and teeth to move them on."

You mean in the rare likelihood that they actually spot a transgender woman (or a woman they suspect is transgender) using their facilities they can challenge them to give evidence of their biological sex (how?) and then ban them from the women's changing rooms?

Please do not spoil your ballot papers.

I completely and totally understand those saying they will spoil or that they won't vote, but at the end of the day that will still lead to Labour getting into power.

It will still lead to a party funded by Stonewall and led by a misogynist coming to power and ensuring men who say they are women can enter women's spaces.

Make no mistake Kier cares more about about what men want than what women need.

We've seen the impact of unisex spaces already with women and girls being assaulted and filmed. It will be a free for all once Labour are in.

We've seen women being raped in prison by men who said they were women.

Kids being put in a medical pathway at a very young age.

Once Kier Starmer gets in, it will soon be a hate crime to even speak about these issues because he is totally in Stonewall's pocket. He is corrupt, he is willing to dismantle oil and gas within too short a time frame because another of his donors owns a renewable power generation company. Who cares if it causes power brown outs and an economic slowdown? Boris Johnson was willing to sell his soul for power and Kier is cut from the same cloth. Both are reprehensible.

You may not like Rishi Sunak's wealth but it does mean he isn't beholden, bought and paid for in the way that Kier Starmer is.

The only realistic option is to vote Conservative to stop a Labour landslide.

How can Starmer represent women. He doesn't even have the courage or the integrity to state what a woman is.

No, transsexuals having been discreetly using women's spaces and we weren't hearing report after report of them behaving in a predatory way.

The transgender umbrella is huge and includes bearded men who think it's OK to access women only rape survivor support groups. How do you think the women in those groups feel?

TRA's have screwed it up for the tiny population of transsexuals so yes now women are saying no men, however they identify, in women's spaces.

If you think legislation for this is pointless then why have any laws?

People commit murder and steal despite the fact it's illegal.

Laws exist as a framework for consequences which is a sufficient deterrent for most people.

Are you saying that transwomen will not respect the law and that's a reason not to legislate?

No, we cannot acknowledge that they have always used female spaces and the current situation is far removed from 2004 when the GRA was passed.

We can acknowledge that they have been using them for a hell of a long time, well before the GRA was even thought of. I'm quite sure that April Ashley, for instance, was using Ladies' toilets back in the early 1960s.