To think this was really inappropriate from a doctor

[urghmen]

Today I had to visit a consultant gynaecologist for an initial appointment about possibly needing a prolapse procedure. I asked him if an operation would help. He tried to put me off and refer me to physio but then at the end of this he then said "although it does make your vagina tighter" and kind of gave a little shrug and smiled. Am I unreasonable to have felt really embarrassed and uncomfortable with this comment. This came after an examination as well so to be honest I felt a bit violated. Just want to get opinions before I decide whether to make a complaint or not.

Absolute rubbish. How do you know he was sexualising the conversation. Where you there? I wonder if the consultant was female giving the same conclusion people would react differently? I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable OP, that's really not ok.

I work in gynae and I think it's inappropriate and would complain. It's not ok. There are ways to communicate about sexual function and this is not it.

@urghmen was there no chaperone present?

Ha do you remember how you felt hours after birth when it was all stretched out down there? Pretty uncomfortable. For many women, it doesn’t go back to how it was. You can’t use tampons. You can’t use moon cups. You can’t feel your partner when having sex. You feel like there is a balloon falling out between your legs. You may also have urinary incontinence as the same muscles that keep the vagina a solid firm column, keep you from pissing yourself. You may suffer from vaginal dryness and itchiness.

There are a lot of benefits for corrective surgery to put the vagina back to what it was by tightening it.

Women aren’t asking for it to please men.

Tbh most men would be quite happy to learn about that side affect.

Yeah, medical staff firstly need to tell you about possible adverse outcomes if you walk in asking for a medical procedure.
They really don't need to "sell" it to you as if you had no clue and your life depends on it.

Idk why are people so fucking jumpy about reproductive and waste removal organs when they come to doctors who stare at them all day long.
There is nothing less sexual than looking at organs in a need of medical help tbh.

Within the discussion about the pros and cons of surgery. ‘While physio can partially resolve the issue surgery can X, Y and Z and also possibly tighten the vagina, which may or may not be a consideration for all women but we try to ensure the possible outcomes of procedures are fully understood’

Rather than a flippant comment at the end with a smile.

To be honest, OP, I expect it would be hard to take this further but I hear you on the gut instinct. You kind of know in situations like this when it’s said in a creepy way.

Shiveringinthecountry
Well it's not just that. It's sexualising the conversation in a way that is inappropriate and unnecessary, and would make many of us feel very uncomfortable. Particularly, as OP has said, bearing in mind that the consultant had just examined OP's vagina.

It's like saying "Your vagina is a bit loose. Sex could be better if it was tighter," imo.

Absolute rubbish. How do you know he was sexualising the conversation. Where you there? I wonder if the consultant was female giving the same conclusion people would react differently? I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable OP, that's really not ok.
^
None of us are ever 'there' when we join in a thread like this on Mumsnet. I'm basing my response on what OP said, and how it affected her, which is all any of us can ever do (unless, of course, we prefer to believe that the OP's description must be wrong and therefore assume that it is).

If the consultant had been a woman, btw, I think the dynamic would have been very different. Heterosexual people are still in the majority, so on the face of things there wouldn't have been the same potential for a woman hearing that comment/seeing that shrug/seeing that little smile from the man in a position of authority to feel the consultant was sexualising the situation.
^

She said he gave a shrug and smiled. No smirking was mentioned; you're obviously trying to give this the worst connotation. Maybe think about why you might do that.

If he was talking about physio vs. surgery, the comment makes sense.

@Winky2024 there was a female nurse there when he did the examination. It was after the examination that the comment was made. I was also accompanied to the appointment by someone else who mentioned that they found it very uncomfortable and didn't feel like he acted like any dr they had seen. But that is obviously their opinion. Just mentioning it as it was mentioned to me.

Exactly.

It’s hard to comment as this really depends how it was said. If you feel it was definitely said in a suggestive creepy way then I’d make a complaint. However if there’s a chance that the smile could just have been social awkwardness or an attempt at reassurance then I’d leave it.

What possible benefit would it have to the OP personally if he vagina were 'tighter'?

Because you can feel penis better/at all?
Did you ever had sex?

I would absolutely expect to be told about potential vaginal tightening when discussing the pros and cons of surgery. It would be remiss not to mention it.

Is your complaint that he mentioned it, or would the comment be ok with you but his “kind of” shrug and smile suggestive?

I don't think you are in the wrong OP, you didn't ask him for that sort of advice.m, and it made you feel uncomfortable.

I've been on the receiving end of inappropriate behaviour from male doctors which has been so subtle as for me to question it (even though I know I shouldn't), that I'm on the verge of asking for only female doctors in future. I would suggest you do the same, given your history.

Hugs OP.

Where does OP say that doctor said surgery “may not really help”? She says he tried to put her off, I imagine due to side effects and risks as opposed to because it wouldn’t help. Obviously surgical repair of a prolapse helps so your comparison doesn’t work. The doctor didn’t say the only purpose of the op was to make her vagina tighter - but frankly, for a lot of women this would be very relevant anyway. Vaginal prolapse and loosening can be extremely distressing for many women. If the male patient in your example had a condition which caused issues with erection then I think it would be entirely right to mention that a procedure or op could make erectoons harder.

I agree about the patriarchy as a general principle but I disagree with the rest of your post.

@urghmen I find it a strange comment and I’m pretty hardy where gynaecologists are concerned, far too much experience.

As the person who accompanied you also felt it was inappropriate then I would complain to PALS. It’s not so much the information he was trying to convey but how he worded it.

I think a female (or more sensitive) gynae might have said something like “any treatment recommended could affect your vaginal muscles”.

You could have then asked for more details if you felt comfortable.

PP are correct that they see us as pieces of meat. It’s horrible but the way most of them are.

I understand your feelings though and hope you are ok x

Well he sort of is..

I would expect a gynae to tell me effects of the surgery or physio. I am unsure why this one should not be spoken of?

I'm surprised at all the comments dismissing this. Talking about vaginal tightness is unequivocally related to sex and is not appropriate in this context. Vaginal tightness also has a lot of misogynistic connotations.

Literally the best case I can imagine is that he was perhaps projecting on to you that your main concern might be how tight your vajayjay is, and was trying to trivialise that by listing all of the reasons not to have the procedure, and the juxtapositioning that with the one "positive".

He probably wasn't trying to be predatory or pervy, but his comments were still inappropriate.

Do you think doctors don't talk about erections with male patients when relevant. It's actually really important that patients are giving informed consent. For example " these blood pressure pills may make it more difficult to get or sustain an erection" or to a diabetic patient with perpheral vascular disease " do you have difficultly maintaining an erectiin?" Why wouldn't we ? It's part of the human body? for most men an important part.

I wouldn't have been upset by this, OP. I think for doctors it's just factual information about body parts.

But you felt how you felt. It was uncomfortable for you and that's a valid feeling.

Same.

I recently had a breast lump (turned out to be a sebaceous cyst so all clear).

I have private healthcare, so was seen quickly for a full investigation all at once (physical, mammogram, ultrasound).

The man carrying out the ultrasound scan spent a very long time applying forceful pressure and rolling back and forth over my nipple, almost like he was playing a game to try and get it to go hard (it eventually did, and that's when he stopped scanning). There were two nurses in the room standing a bit further away, and me lying on my back half clothed feeling extremely vulnerable, with this make doctor going on, I just froze. Lots of these male doctors are hiding in plain sight as this isn't the first time I've had a similar experience.

All I got from the female doctors was courtesy, care and kindness.

This wouldn’t bother me one bit.

There's just something very off key to me to specifically referring to vaginal "tightness".

It's very much a male term from a male perspective. Women might care about improved sexual sensation through stronger pelvic floor muscles. And if he had said something like that I could understand why most people are fine with the comment. But talking in that way to a woman just makes it seem so weird and male centric. Hardly what you want from a gynaecologist.

Oh my GOD everyone saying "he was stating a fact". Ffs. The issue is not the words that were in the comment, it's the smile and the shrug. Fucking hell. Depending on what the smile and shrug were like it's at best really inappropriate and at worst really fucking creepy and disgusting. Please complain. You were there and if it made you feel uncomfortable then actually that's the only thing that determines whether it was ok or not.