To ask if its fair that inclusivity has excluded my DC from their hobby?

[DImplesandCheese]

TLDR: ND child is causing my DC to quit much loved hobby as ND child's behaviour is ruining it for them.

Full Story: DC (13) attended a hobby/club and has done for years. 2 years ago a new child joined. The child is ND and their particular behaviours include shouting out, not listening, inappropriate use of kit and refusal to fully participate in activities. DC has complained on and off since this child joined that it is spoiling it. I have encouraged DC to be understanding and supportive, I have spoken with the staff at the club to ask if more support for this child can be put in place. Nothing has changed.

Part of the club involves some unsupervised time and this is DC's favourite part of the club. The last two unsupervised sessions have been completely ruined by this child's behaviour, the group have had to call staff for help to sort it out and therefore their final result for the session has been effected. 2 months ago after the last ones of these sessions I spoke with staff and asked why this child doesn't have a 1 to 1 support/parent staying with them as this is hugely effecting everyone else's enjoyment and I was told that my DC is exaggerating and 'fixating' on this child.

DC came home last night as said he's quitting. This child has wrecked the night's activity again. I spoke to the staff and was told that they 'are an inclusive club and they pride themselves in being open to all' and hinted that DC leaving may well be for the best if he's not happy.

I have 2 ND DC, I get the difficulties, I get that they should have access to clubs and activities, I get that allowances need to be made for their behaviour. I am in no way suggesting the child should be kicked out but surely if you have children leaving because of another child then the support in place for that child isn't right?

AIBU to think that more should be done to support this child correctly so DC can continue to enjoy their hobby and that my DC having to leave is not an acceptable situation?

It's poor management by the club not inclusivity to blame as the club is not being inclusive - at all.

It's about number ratios and training to make it truly exclusive and this kid is actually not being included but just allowed to mis behave and ostracise himself

I would leave due to the poor management and leadership but not blame the kid irrespective of how disruptive his behaviour is as he may not be able to help it and clearly isn't being supervised and guided appropriately.

I say this as someone who is ND.

Would your rules also apply at the theatre, opera, cinema, etc?

People should be able to go out and enjoy peaceful activities without them being disrupted and ruined.

'They can't help it' isn't a get out of jail card for antisocial behaviour.

We I ran brownies and beaver scouts we happily included SEN kids - but if they needed support a parent had to stay and help. As a volunteer run activity, safeguarding rules meant that ratios didn’t cover the group if one adult co-leader had to focus on any particular child. We always operated on required number of helpers for the ratio +1 anyway, so that if there was an emergency we still had cover.

OP, I’d either move DS to another group, if there is one for his activity, or speak to the organisers to see if there is any way to arrange a parent/additional volunteer (later less likely, I know).

I think its pretty clear here that the ND childs needs are NOT actually being met, the group may be ticking an inclusivity box by having him attend, but not offering (or asking that he be given) the support he appears to need.

I don't see how this is OP's kids problem to fix.

I also think people (whether this is an adult activity or a kid activity) should seriously consider the activity itself, the goals of that group, and the disability and think 'is this ACTUALLY reasonable/sensible'...

Inclusivity takes more than simply opening the doors and saying 'come on in, all are welcome'. You also need to make it clear what support might be needed and make that possible (which doesn't necessarily mean the club or group must provide it) for someone to come and join in with the group activity.

It also needs to be practical, sometimes the level of support required is so high, it just isn't sensible.

I can't join a football club, because I cannot run around a field or kick a ball. The support I'd need to do that would be someone else to run around the field and kick the ball for me. Pointless!

It would also be ridiculous for me to join a football club and then expect them to change how football works in order for me to take part!

It's difficult for anyone to judge (including you) as we only have your son and the clubs word to go on.

Maybe this child's behaviour is as disruptive as your son believes it is. Maybe he is fixating on the child. It's impossible to know without seeing the session in action.

From personal experience within my family, I don't think it's unusual (or unreasonable) for a child with nd siblings to be less able to cope with other nd peers at school/groups. They often need a break from being accommodating.

Are there any young carer groups available to him? I'm not sure how many are still running after a million budget cuts but my little cousin really benefited from spending social time with other children who had disability in their family.

For every one to be tolerant of those with disabilities and make reasonable accomodations.

I still also maintain that every one is responsible for their own happiness.

I'm not saying that nobody should pay regard to any one else however if someone has a disability and they are displaying behaviour consistent and in line with that disability but they are not in distress, then tolerance should be the lowest that the bar is set.

If anybody else can not or will not tolerate it and they cannot find a solution or compromise then they have the opportunity to leave.

I think this is an excellent learning opportunity for your child. He needs to learn how to ignore others and focus on himself. Where not all going to get on with everyone Sometimes people are annoying but quitting isn't the answer if it was nobody would have a job. This is all about the realities of life and sharing space with others, that he has to learn.

The OP has already told us he is NOT ND.
Why must we jump to this conclusion, just because he isn’t happy about the disturbance at his hobby and not being able to complete tasks etc? I’d say that’s a pretty normal reaction tbh

Do you know what? Yes I would expect people to tolerate disabled people enjoying the things they want to whether that is the theatre, cinema, opera etc.

I will explain my reasoning for this which again you might agree with or you might disagree with, and I think your disagreement would come from a place of privilege.

In my town, which is quite a large town, multiple cinemas, theatres, art museums etc, none of these establishments offer regular or accessible screenings or openings.

One cinema (large chain) offers no accessible viewings and we've to travel to the next city if we want to see any of their very limited viewings.

Our smaller chain cinema offers 1 accessible viewing of each movie per month and this is usually on a weekday during school time.

It's absolutely deplorable, and I and many other SEN advocates have been campaigning for more accessible services for our children and family members for a very long time and it is like hitting our head against a brick wall. Businesses do not want to coordinate this because it takes time and it takes money.

There is no reason why especially in such a developed area disability accomodations are so lacking. It's disgusting.

I am well aware that my sons verbal stims might be distracting but I am not going to keep him shut in or deprive him of normal activities that other people get to experience and enjoy because he processes his enjoyment outwardly. This is inconvenient to other people but his disability is mostly inconvenient to him and he is allowed to live and experience the world and it should be wholly encouraged.

Until those without disabilities also lobby alongside us for more accessible screenings and businesses make the necessary changes to protect the enjoyment of our disabled and our able separately then we should tolerate and encourage our disabled into the society we live in now as they are part of society.

If you do not want to experience society in its wholeness which can be inconvenient or frustrating for many different reasons and not just because we have disabled people then don't leave your house.

Hi OP, I totally sympathise with your son. It sounds like he has a lot to contend with in life and this should be an enjoyable activity for him. This sounds incredibly disruptive to me.

It’s interesting to hear that others feel that children or adults for that matter should be able to tolerate a child running round the room or shouting / screaming/ making loud noises during an activity .
I could not manage to be around this. I would never choose a hotel with a busy pool with shrieking kids for example. I am very intolerant compared to some others to those who go off task or make a lot of noise. But I have also been diagnosed as ND aged 44.

I had never perceived that intolerance was such a feature of ND and this thread has made me question it.

My advice would be to take a deep breath and try once more to stress to the leaders how much this is effecting your DS‘s happiness. DS has tried to accept it and CANNOT . The other child’s needs should not trump DS’ . The important point is that he ‘needs’ not ‘wants’ for activities not to be hugely disrupted.

If there is still no positive response from the leaders then take control and accept that leaving the group is the best thing for your son’s mental health. Good luck !

Another example, if Timmy was a vocal stimmer, and spent a lot of time grunting and groaning and making long drawn out noises that were very loud and Timmy wanted to go and spend time at a café, Timmy is welcome to do that.

If anybody else can not or will not tolerate it and they cannot find a solution or compromise then they have the opportunity to leave.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead Your cafe example also raises the question of what happens if Timmy’s loudness impedes other customers from having quiet conversations (as is typical in a cafe), so they choose to go elsewhere.

What happens to the cafe?

The cafe can tolerate a temporary inconvenience.

The cafe cannot discriminate against Timmy for his disability. Verbal stimming is the only noise some people can make.

I recall a Reddit thread a few years ago where a father complained that his son was being allowed to participate in brass band practice but not to participate in competitions - he was seldom on task and his stimming involved making noises.

He was taken aback when other Redditors pointed out that bands enter competitions in order to win and that you don't compete with the band unless you're able to play at a certain level.

In the end, he seemed to accept that the brass band was doing enough to accommodate his son by involving him in practices.

Similarly, when I was at school I enjoyed hockey practice but was never good enough to get picked for the team. I could take part in practices and knockabouts at school - and even travelled with the team as a sub - but knew that I wouldn't play in competitions unless a significant number of our players were hit by the lurgy. I was happy with that.

I now know that there are several reasons as to why I've never been good at sport: lax tendons and patella alta. These problems coupled with my flat feet apparently explain why I have a tendency to trip and fall. Even if I'd known what the problem was, I wouldn't have expected our hockey coach to place me in the team. Our coach was open about her policy and I knew what I was signing up for when I joined the hockey club.

My late husband helped train youngsters in Shotokan karate. Some youngsters with difficulties trained at the club but would never have managed to represent the club in kumite (fighting) competitions.

We can strive for inclusivity, but we can't always include everyone in everything.

Re: the suggestion above that other DC can provide support for DC with needs. Sometimes this is possible - I've seen it in a school setting. However, it's up to the adults to provide ongoing support for children.

On some social media boards, if someone under 18 is being required to provide ongoing support for younger or disabled siblings, there are immediate responses of "Parentification!"

While it can be good for the development of children to help others, you can't expect them to do it all.

I've seen discussions on Mumsnet where posters have agreed that it's wrong for teachers to expect pupils to provide ongoing support for other pupils. Why is it any different in an extra-curricular situation? Surely that's the job of the adults, not the children?

What happens to the cafe?

I'm guessing that's 'not Timmy's problem'.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead Cafes and restaurants typically operate on razor-thin margins. If they lose even one afternoon’s business, it’s serious.
Also, if customers equate the cafe with excess noise, they won’t return.

It hasn’t excluded your son, no one has told him to leave. If the ND kid can’t complete tasks at all or well, why not give him tasks alongside another capable person, so there is nothing dependent totally on him alone?

Why do posters bashing ND kids then always go on to claim they have ND kids themselves. 🤔 I've seen soo many. ..

In 99.99% of situations, Timmy's not gonna be in the cafe for hours on end.

One of my local cafes has visits from high support need students (with 1-1s) at a local schools. They are loud. It's never disrupted my conversation for more than a few minutes. Worst case scenario I have to repeat myself. If I'm on my own and the stimming is loud I have loop earbuds (I am sensitive to noise).

Would you complain about crying babies too?

What about an elderly person with dementia?

Or should they stay out of cafes too?

The sad fact is that once you can vote with your feet the majority of people will just avoid situations with people that annoy them. Most people won't take it as an opportunity to "learn empathy" so I don't know why we expect children to.

@Twototwo15 You mean one of the leaders? Or should another 13-year-old be designated their support person?

That would make sense, but it's something that needs to be organised by the adults.

So what would you have the cafe do please?

Well said. A lot of disabled people have very limited lives, don’t limit them even more by expecting them to never do anything because it might cause someone a bit of temporary inconvenience once in a while.

I couldn’t cope with a persistently crying baby in a cafe either. I would have to leave it they didn’t.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead They’ll have to lose business, I suppose. People losing their jobs doesn’t seem to be considered an issue.

What do you think they should do?