To ask if its fair that inclusivity has excluded my DC from their hobby?

[DImplesandCheese]

TLDR: ND child is causing my DC to quit much loved hobby as ND child's behaviour is ruining it for them.

Full Story: DC (13) attended a hobby/club and has done for years. 2 years ago a new child joined. The child is ND and their particular behaviours include shouting out, not listening, inappropriate use of kit and refusal to fully participate in activities. DC has complained on and off since this child joined that it is spoiling it. I have encouraged DC to be understanding and supportive, I have spoken with the staff at the club to ask if more support for this child can be put in place. Nothing has changed.

Part of the club involves some unsupervised time and this is DC's favourite part of the club. The last two unsupervised sessions have been completely ruined by this child's behaviour, the group have had to call staff for help to sort it out and therefore their final result for the session has been effected. 2 months ago after the last ones of these sessions I spoke with staff and asked why this child doesn't have a 1 to 1 support/parent staying with them as this is hugely effecting everyone else's enjoyment and I was told that my DC is exaggerating and 'fixating' on this child.

DC came home last night as said he's quitting. This child has wrecked the night's activity again. I spoke to the staff and was told that they 'are an inclusive club and they pride themselves in being open to all' and hinted that DC leaving may well be for the best if he's not happy.

I have 2 ND DC, I get the difficulties, I get that they should have access to clubs and activities, I get that allowances need to be made for their behaviour. I am in no way suggesting the child should be kicked out but surely if you have children leaving because of another child then the support in place for that child isn't right?

AIBU to think that more should be done to support this child correctly so DC can continue to enjoy their hobby and that my DC having to leave is not an acceptable situation?

Same here. And I’m NT.
People pay money to do things, we are in a capitalist society after all, and people vote with their feet and money gets lost.

They can tolerate a temporary inconvenience.

In fact, being disability inclusive and promoting that you're disability inclusive is a wonderful way to promote your business to services and service users as a safe space, attract a regular clientele and foster a wonderful environment for those who are able and willing to be tolerant.

Timmy wouldn't be there all day. Timmy has as much right as any one else to be there. Timmy is paying them money like everybody else.

@Scattery When a baby or toddler becomes really distressed in a business, responsible parents take them outside. Isn’t that what you do, @Scattery?

The dementia sufferers I’ve met in cafes have someone with them and if they got distressed, I imagine their carer would suggest a change of scene. Surely that’s what Timmy’s carer would do as well if the stimming became very loud?

My late husband and I sometimes had to do that. From his 60s onward, he wore hearing aids. Unfortunately, they didn't allow him to discriminate between background noise and conversations, so if the background noise got too loud he'd have to switch off his hearing aids, meaning he couldn't join in conversations.

In some situations, we simply had to eat up as quickly as possible and then leave.

They are letting the disruptive child down as well as your own. The leaders should be insisting on 1:1 support if they cannot provide this from their volunteer group.

Its not noise thats the problem In the case i mentioned its dangerous things like throwing a bucket of water everywhere. Health and safety law would supersede the Equality Act in this case. Staff and customers are entitled to a safe environment. Its not the fault of the child. Its the dad who is usually with her.

So a disabled kid's money isn't as good as yours? Check.

I'm in cafes a lot, and I've only left a handful of times because of noise. Never has it stemmed from a crying baby, nor a disabled person. Instead it's from some dickhead taking a conference call, on speaker, from their laptop, at high volume.

But no let's go ahead and blame.... disabled people. For making noise. Cool. That's real tolerance right there.

Who says Timmy has a carer? Who says the only thing Timmy can do is vocal stim? There's a massive spectrum of ability in disabilities, and our non verbal ND people can still live independently. Being non verbal or only having vocal stims isn't in itself a measure of intelligence or understand but is simply a measure of speech apraxia and processing.

Also vocal stimming doesn't mean distress, it can, but it is usually used simply to process the world. We all process the world differently. We all process happiness differently.

There's absolutely no reason for Timmy to remove himself from a situation he is not distressed in.

To equate vocal stims only with distress is a very narrow minded way of looking at things.

Obviously.

I'm not the one in this thread worried about a disabled kid bringing down a cafe's profits though, LOL.

Would you complain about crying babies too?

Not so very long ago it was seen as considerate for the responsible adult to remove a crying baby from a cafe so as not to disturb the majority of other customers who found it distressing.

@Scattery You’re clearly not affected by the COL like many MN’ers then. A small business losing customers, who cares? Being inclusive of everyone’s needs, such as ppl hard of hearing like me, who cares about that?

Luckily most people are reasonable and wouldn’t leave and never come back because a noisy disabled person was there occasionally, so I doubt the business would go bust.

@DImplesandCheese The ND child needs a parent there.
It’s ridiculous to spoil the enjoyment of many because of the behaviour of one.

There was a child recently that was screeching raggedly every few minutes- It sounded like an alarm call, but wasn’t.

That definitely disturbed people within hearing distance.

Noisy screeching is incredibly off putting to others .

I do feel sorry for your son - it must be very frustrating if there isn’t a parent or carer there.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead

I appreciate that you’re advocating for inclusivity, but your examples do seem to have wider implications.

In Knit and Natter, it seems that only Nina’s needs really count, Nora and the other participants don’t. Same in the cafe. I don’t know how this approach includes other people.

I...honestly have no idea why you think I'm not affected by COL because I'm arguing for people to show tolerance toward short-lived verbal stims. Once again, you're more concerned here about business profits than inclusion, but go off, I guess.

I am deaf in one ear. My other ear is sensitive to loud noises. I carry Loop earbuds. I have NEVER felt disincluded when a learning disabled person is loud in a cafe.

I don't think I can actually bring myself to say anything else other than that I sincerely hope you are able to dig deep and find some tolerance for folks in our society who are different.

Crying babies are not comparable as being a baby doesn’t last a lifetime. People can avoid cafes or take their crying babies out for the couple of years they have them, although they should not have to, but at least they don’t have a lifetime of being unwelcome by some people.

and this is why its so difficult. My life is a constant battle between my ND kids need to process their way and my NT kids right to enjoy life without always having to accommodate.

My family experience tells me that being ND and living with ND people are both very hard in their own ways and both parties deserve support and enjoyment of life.

Also, tolerance of something that can't be helped any further is different from trying to tolerate something that could be improved it people stepped up.

Cant find the post now but im fucking appalled at the father who threatened a volunteer with the equality law when simply being asked to stay to supervise his own child. Obvious he wanted child free time

I'm a retired teacher of severely autistic children in a special school. A charity used to regularly give us tickets to take our children to West End theatres. For Disney adaptations etc.

After the first time (when everyone went) I really wanted our school to select which children went in future. I was with a very complex child with loud outbursts, and she was ruining it for the families behind us in the stalls, who must have paid a fortune for their tickets. And frankly she was getting nothing at all from watching the show. In the end I took her out, leaving my TA team to look after the rest of my class.
Other teachers remained sitting with their own disruptive pupils, which I didn't feel was right.

The debate in the staffroom when the charity approached us again, was... spirited. But the head agreed that taking children who had shown that they did not benefit from the experience, and disturbed paying audience members, was unfair.

A local theatre provided us with seats next to an 'escape' room, and in that case we did take everyone, with the complex children on the end of the rows. That worked beautifully and enabled us to recognise where some children could learn to cope with the experience.

I do agree with you there and I do also agree with the other PPs that this child needs support at this hobby group, and is being failed.

I do think that if the group is run by volunteers though that they've reached the scope of what is reasonable to provide however they risk a breach of the law if this child isn't actively acting in a dangerous capacity, as another pp has mentioned that health and safety laws are paramount.

I disagree with the PPs that have a very limited tolerance for disabled people trying to experience life in the world though.

Every one should at the very least be tolerant of our disabled but businesses should be held accountable for actively supporting inclusivity within their business models.

It is frustrating! I care for a 4 year old who is autistic. As well as another 4 year old and a 2 year old.
He's disruptive- if he decides he doesn't want to do something, then there's no way he will do it which impacts on the fun and experience that the other children should be getting from it. Parents pay for their children to have different activities and experiences with me and I feel bad for the other children if they don't get that.
You are also paying for your son to take part in his hobby and you're not getting what you are paying for. It seems that the leaders don't actually know what to do with the other child and are too scared to approach his parents about it in case they upset anybody.
So I can imagine OP that if this happens at your son's hobby every single week, he will be absolutely fed up of it!

As a mother of ND children yourself, you are probably going to have a lifetime of people reacting negatively to your children's existence. You'll come across plenty of people like your NT son who just can't handle the inconvenience and annoyance that other people's disabilities have on their lives. I wonder if you'll be so understanding when it's your own children who are being avoided and whose presences are being blamed.

@Scattery I have no issue with anyone going to a cafe.

My point was that @Jimmyneutronsforehead gives examples that suggest that in a group setting, only one person’s needs should be taken into consideration ( in the Knit and Natter group and the cafe). No one else’s needs seem to be important. According to @Jimmyneutronsforehead, they have to leave if they can’t tolerate a behavior.

I just don’t see how that would work IRL. 🤷 Yes, I’m massively exaggerating about the cafe.

The child i mentioned upthread has a brother. He isnt always with them but when he is he looks as miserable as sin