To ask if its fair that inclusivity has excluded my DC from their hobby?

[DImplesandCheese]

TLDR: ND child is causing my DC to quit much loved hobby as ND child's behaviour is ruining it for them.

Full Story: DC (13) attended a hobby/club and has done for years. 2 years ago a new child joined. The child is ND and their particular behaviours include shouting out, not listening, inappropriate use of kit and refusal to fully participate in activities. DC has complained on and off since this child joined that it is spoiling it. I have encouraged DC to be understanding and supportive, I have spoken with the staff at the club to ask if more support for this child can be put in place. Nothing has changed.

Part of the club involves some unsupervised time and this is DC's favourite part of the club. The last two unsupervised sessions have been completely ruined by this child's behaviour, the group have had to call staff for help to sort it out and therefore their final result for the session has been effected. 2 months ago after the last ones of these sessions I spoke with staff and asked why this child doesn't have a 1 to 1 support/parent staying with them as this is hugely effecting everyone else's enjoyment and I was told that my DC is exaggerating and 'fixating' on this child.

DC came home last night as said he's quitting. This child has wrecked the night's activity again. I spoke to the staff and was told that they 'are an inclusive club and they pride themselves in being open to all' and hinted that DC leaving may well be for the best if he's not happy.

I have 2 ND DC, I get the difficulties, I get that they should have access to clubs and activities, I get that allowances need to be made for their behaviour. I am in no way suggesting the child should be kicked out but surely if you have children leaving because of another child then the support in place for that child isn't right?

AIBU to think that more should be done to support this child correctly so DC can continue to enjoy their hobby and that my DC having to leave is not an acceptable situation?

I think there is a difference between behaviours or disabilities that reduce the speed or ability of a member of the team to do something or ones that mean the child is there but not joining in through choice/playing on the side and a situation where the child is not engaging in the activity in a way that prevents the rest of the team completing it.

Child playing on the side, not engaged with activity but happy, rest of team complete task - great, fantastic.

Child engaged but slower and less able, team wait for them or help them as appropriate so the team completes together - great, fantastic.

Child not engaged and behaviours prevent the team from either helping them join in or being able to carry on without them - a failure to provide the right support and not ok

We are experiencing the 3rd scenario.

@DImplesandCheese im surprised you’ve let your child struggle for two years in a club he finds frustrating. What about providing some support in the form of a 1:1 for your child to help him navigate this situation?

"At my daughter's martial arts club there's a boy who has quite severe learning difficulties. He can't talk, and runs around the hall, often making excited noises. He clearly enjoys it very much, and can't participate at all with the routines and drills. However, everyone seems to take this in their stride, including the instructors, and his presence is joyful.

I wanted to add this experience to the thread, to give a more positive picture of what inclusion can look like."

Does your daughter get paired with him for sparring practice every week? As an approximation of OP's son's situation.

I was prepared to tear you one but....I agree. And tbh, I have the same issue taking my ND child to SEN sessions. Because the spectrum of behaviours is so wide, DD really struggles behind around other SEN kids because of verbal stims and noise. So we choose her activities carefully. DDs ideal of hell is a session full of hyperactive ADHD boys.
We have also spoke to the management of a club we attended as there were children who were not being sufficiently supervised and were becoming physically violent with other kids. Its not the childs fault, its the fault of the adults in charge,

So overall no, the issue isn't inclusivity, its that the club are not meeting this childs needs.

I would be mindful of your language though. This child isnt wrecking it for the ND kids. The club are by not helping him.

You cant complain about vocal stims, that IS dickish.

I agree with others that your child sounds like they’re neurodiverse and their needs are clashing with the other boys. Could you stay for the odd session to observe what’s going on and then provide him with a few ideas re coping strategies?

I’ve been on both sides of this situation.

I have a severely disabled son, so early on realised he would not be able to attend the same activities as his brothers. Sometimes, as a parent you have to admit your child doesn’t ‘fit’ the club. You then find something else for them, more suitable.

I’m amazed at school, when I work 1-2-1 with a child during the day, but then they attend an after school club and suddenly they don’t need any support? Obviously they do, because the club inform school they can’t manage their behaviour.

I think it’s unfair to all the children and doing a disservice to the child with additional needs, if reasonable adjustments aren’t made for ND child. In this case, it’s clearly obvious the child needs a 1-2-1. I suspect the reason it hasn’t happened is because the club has volunteers running it?

you'll just have to trust me when I say my DC is not ND.

If you would still like your DC to engage with this club could you perhaps talk to the leaders and ask them what help they need? So rather than being a criticism of their inability to manage the situation you give them the chance to share the problems of their situation and how it could be improved. If this child is a problem they will have talked about it. They may just feel under resourced or unsupported generally.

It doesn’t matter if he has a disability himself or not, what matters is he can’t cope with this child’s behaviour and he needs help finding a way to do that.

Right, but what about the expectations the other users (ND or NT) might have of the environment itself? You don't go to a sports match expecting peace and quiet but this is a reasonable expectation in a cafe (obviously depending on location, time of day etc).

OP you know your son, you don't know the other child. You don't know what discussions their parents may be having or have had with group leaders. You don't know how hard their parents may be fighting for more support for their child, not just in the group but in life generally. You don't know how capable this child is and you certainly don't know how much pleasure they get from attending these sessions. And because you know none of these things OP, you don't get to judge the child's family or the club. They could be doing their utmost, you just don't know.

And by the way, your title is so ableist that I cannot believe it was written by the mother of 2 ND children. You should know better.

I'm pretty certain that as he had two ND siblings, he knows about coping strategies.

But there is no strategy for coping with this particular child in the particular setting that OP has described.

trying not to be outing...I have been in an environment to see this child and see the behaviours first hand but at a younger age than the child is now. This child benefitted greatly when they had an adult working with them, they were able to stay mostly on task and team activities got completed. This is why i'm so sure 1-2-1 will help hugely.

Yes it is volunteer led.

My DC attends other groups with other ND children and whilst various behaviours and stims are annoying (and no, i don't think it's 'dickish' to acknowledge that other people's stims can be annoying. DC1's drive me up the wall sometimes) he shrugs them off and gets on with things.

What i see through these posts is that clearly the club have decided what their version of inclusivity is. and that doesn't work for my DC. so i guess it's time to let this one go and find him another group. I do feel bad for the ND child who I think is being let down.

Exactly this.
I take it this is Scouts/Guides/Cadets or similar.
Part of this will be that the ability to work as an unsupervised team is a skill that includes both making up for members who cannot do the task AND negotiating with others to get this done.

It is also quite likely that adding in a one to one would change the experience for your DC and the rest of the team, and potentially lead to worse behaviour - we are currently easing our DS off having us present at church youth group as he only wants to do the activities with us, which prevents him from interacting with other DCs.

Child not engaged and behaviours prevent the team from either helping them join in or being able to carry on without them - a failure to provide the right support and not ok
If this child was blind and could not read the instructions, the other DCs would help them read them.
If the child was on crutches and couldn't walk the whole way, the other DCs would ask the leaders to make adjustments.
If the child was in a wheelchair and couldn't get through the mud, the other DCs would either find another route themselves or ask the leaders to suggest another route.
If any DC moaned to the leaders that this dreadful disabled child was preventing them from getting the team task done this would, I hope, bring down the wrath of God on the DCs who moaned.
Why is this different? If the team of DCs can't find a solution that doesn't involve this one child doing something they aren't capable of doing, then they should be asking the leaders if they can make adjustments. Like not saying "every group member has to get across the bog" or "every group member has to read their own instructions".
It is slightly hampered by the DC in question probably not knowing what will help them, but some DCs with physical disabilities don't know how much they can do and the blind child wouldn't even KNOW that they were supposed to be reading the instructions!

I'd let your child move if things aren't getting better for him. Ultimately we do hobbies for fun and relaxation and this sounds like neither for him.

YANBU OP.

Not only is the child not being supported properly ruining it for other class members, it's also potentially a safeguarding risk. There was a report recently about clubs outside of school having lots of safeguarding failures and I've seen it myself. My DDs used to go to a club that was run chaotically and included children with complex needs. At one point a child ran away and other children were asked to go after that child. Totally inappropriate and unsafe for all the children involved. I immediately pulled my kids out of the club. They were disappointed as they enjoyed the activity but there are other clubs. I hope your DC finds something they enjoy more elsewhere.

The leaders' attempts to put some level of 'blame' on your child (saying he's fixating and exaggerating) would be enough to put me off this group, even if the other child's behaviour suddenly shifted to allow the children to work together and complete their goals during unsupervised time. Even if they're correct, it's not a particularly diplomatic approach.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anything your son can do other than put up with it or leave and find another hobby. Maybe if enough of the other children follow his example, something will change. Or the group may simply dissolve.

So where will this 1-2-1 come from? The 1-2-1 tree? Ask the SEN board folks about that, we could use a laugh.

Had similar issues when my son did Ice Hockey - one child was a total demon, poured water in my son’s kit bag, ran around screaming, hit people with sticks (when not guarded up), did not listen, trashed their belongings etc (did this to others too, so not personal).

Thing was older child is ASD/ADHD and this activity was supposed to be a space for him away from them, a place where he didn’t have to make allowances and have his fun compromised or circumscribed. He found it so stressful and upsetting, he gave up - and e had a similar line from the club/coaches, too.

Ironically a few years later my son was diagnosed too, but his ASD doesn’t involved acting like a lunatic and trashing other people’s possessions. Was livid as ice hockey kit is not cheap…

Sometimes I think that children are expected to tolerate a lot more than adults in this department, for example in the classroom vs the workplace (unless your workplace is a school!) This has been amply demonstrated on this thread.

^ This. But I don't think you can change this OP. The organisers either can't or won't change anything so all your DS can sadly do is leave. If I were him I'd be telling them that he was finishing because he wasn't enjoying it anymore.

Can you offer to volunteer for that club?
From your posts it sounds like you work with kids who have additional needs.
Your child is entitled to his limit.
Unless the ND child hurt your child I think it's difficult to complain.

So where will this 1-2-1 come from? The 1-2-1 tree? Ask the SEN board folks about that, we could use a laugh.
Oh yes... that famous 1-2-1 tree.
We get direct payments for our son to have a PA take him to activities.
We get minimum wage level for this.
We approached a mentoring company to ask if they had anyone to do this. £75 an hour.

Yes, we get four hours a week and eight in school hols. Minimum wage.

I totally get it op. My DS used to come home almost in tears with frustration at PE lessons (very small school) where a game would have to stopped and interrupted multiple times to allow a tantrumming year 6 pupil have the ball and to let him win.

My son would ask me despairingly what the point of playing the game was if one pupil could circumvent the rules and get more game-play by just kicking off. He understood the child’s difficulties as they’d had assemblies on it, but there seemed absolutely no concession to the disruption and unfairness to the rest of the class who just wanted to get on a finish a game of basketball or football.

My son would’ve been more than happy for Ben to have the ball once or twice and then cajoled for the rest of the game but stopping every 5 mins was infuriating. My son sadly said at the time he would rather just not bother with PE at all if it was going to be like that.

There has to be a middle ground between accommodating/including but creating conditions where it doesn’t impact on the enjoyment of the original purpose.