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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

6 year child - stranger talking about her penis

434 replies

hermenmumster · 20/06/2024 09:58

Trigger warning : sensitive topic around Gender Identity

I was at a work event (private garden - bring family along deal) and someone there is a transgender woman- she was tall, bearded ,hirsuite and wearing a dress and heels.
My daughter (6) was roaming around with the other kids and i think must have asked the lady why she was wearing a dress.
She explained that she ´was born a man with a willy , and is now a lady ’

Something jarred in me about a grown person talking about gentalia to a 6 year old child.
What does the mumsnet think?
AIBU to be annoyed?

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 08:47

A pluralistic society needs people like me who can work in the middle of issues - this is where most of us live.

Thing is, you aren't 'working in the middle' if you prioritise men's rights to 'identify' as women and talk about their penises to little girls over the safety and dignity of women and children. You're basically a men's rights activist.

Maybe you live in a place where you can go on a March without any consequences.

What are you even talking about. What consequences. It might be interesting to note at this point that I grew up in Northern Ireland, so I know plenty about matches with 'consequences' thanks.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 08:48

Pronouns in workplaces are clearly on the decline and thank goodness for that.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:53

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 08:58

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

I didn't say he was. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress.

However a man asking others to 'affirm' him as a woman because he 'identifies' as one and asking for rights to their spaces - would be a demonstration of the above

Or perhaps additionally a deeply confused, lost individual who have lost their way entirely and needs help. Though that would probably borderline on mental illness.

And no, I don't think any of this is good for society and I'm not afraid to say that.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:59

What I mean is, a man or transwoman in a dress may have all sorts of issues and motivations but it's not a simple 2 + 2 = 4 thing.

There will be many men in dresses who do no harm at all. We need to fight for their rights too don't we. Notwithstanding women's needs.

But we can't make it illegal for men to dress as women - is all I'm saying. This is about meaning and that's why it's so hard to manage.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 09:00

Do none of you have teenagers?

Not yet, no. I have nieces that are far more vociferous against this nonsense than I am.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 09:01

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:59

What I mean is, a man or transwoman in a dress may have all sorts of issues and motivations but it's not a simple 2 + 2 = 4 thing.

There will be many men in dresses who do no harm at all. We need to fight for their rights too don't we. Notwithstanding women's needs.

But we can't make it illegal for men to dress as women - is all I'm saying. This is about meaning and that's why it's so hard to manage.

Since absolutely no one is suggesting making it illegal for men to dress as women, why do you keep returning to it?

Caerulea · 21/06/2024 09:09

hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 08:03

OP here.

Have had a deep dive into the night about some of these terms raised on here.

-We were told that this colleague joining us was a Transwoman before they joined the team , but I am not 100% sure how they identify and didn't ask them. Perhaps it was an assumption they were a TW due to the fact they wore a dress. We are a very friendly team and therefore welcomed this person to a social and that was an introduction for them to us and our families.

  • The more I read the more I think this person might have autogynaephilia , as he is very clearly a male in terms of beard, body hair and musculature, voice etc but wears a dress and heels. For anyone else who doesnt know , this is man who derives sexual arousal from wearing woman's clothes .
  • The more I read about AGP the more I understand it is sexual fetish. Therefore having any person (who on my assumption only, has AGP) around my little girl who has outward displays of sexual fetishisation obviously now makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, and knowing what I know now to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

Ignoring what was said to your daughter (which I took to be weird but probably down the TW trying to dumb down a complex conversation. They could have kicked off as being openly recognised a man, but they didn't) please don't make the mistake of thinking that just cos a man is wearing 'women's' clothes that they are AGP.

I used to adore Eddie Izzard when he declared 'they are not women's clothes, they are my clothes. I bought them' & declared 'equal clothing rights'. Now I think he's an enormous prick, but that's by the by.

Being AGP, having dysphoria & just wearing what you like (have you worn trousers lately? Were you pretending to be a man when you did?) are 3 very separate things, don't conflate them. One negatively affects women, one requires the sufferer to seek help & support & the third positively benefits men by allowing them to dress as they please with 'equal clothing rights'. It's also been a long used way for gay men to express themselves.

I would probably be considered GC fwiw

DisappearingGirl · 21/06/2024 09:13

Hmm, I am absolutely not a fan of gender ideology (though have no problem with trans individuals) and I think this was inappropriate of this person - however I an on the fence about whether they were deliberately being dodgy or were just clumsy in their explanation. Just thinking a child may not understand what is meant by "I was born a man" - so I can imagine myself putting it in context to a child by saying they were born with a willy (in other words they are biologically male) but now think of themselves as female. It's not right though - I just wouldn't be sure if it was intentionally dodgy or not!

I definitely think you've done the right thing to explain to your dd that adults talking about their genitals to her is not right and she should leave the situation and tell you if that ever happens. And I wouldn't have my child around this person again.

However I'd agree with not rushing to report to HR, partly as it may have been clumsy rather than malicious, and partly to protect yourself if the organisation is very Stonewalled. My organisation is quite Stonewall-y and I have a personal rule that I'll speak up if it's really going to help things, but I'm also careful to protect myself and won't be getting into arguments that will just backfire on me. I'm very careful about what I say and to whom.

minipie · 21/06/2024 09:16

I cannot understand why someone who truly wishes to be a woman and be seen as such, would have a beard?

It does seem that in this person’s case it’s far more likely to be about wearing women’s clothes than actually wanting to be female.

I support breaking down stereotypes and I have no issues with a man wearing a dress (as long as it’s a work-event appropriate one) but in that case his response ought to have been “Because I like wearing dresses” rather than “I used to be a man and now I’m a woman”. But I guess “I like wearing dresses” wouldn’t get the same praise and protection as being trans.

And obviously no need to mention willies either way.

FOJN · 21/06/2024 09:21

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:53

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

Do you mean a man wearing a dress is in itself not evidence of a fetish? I agree, however in some cases it is, transvestic disorder is in the DSM 5. So yes it has been established in medicine that cross dressing can be a paraphilic disorder if certain criteria are met.

The law may use the expertise of qualified mental health professionals when required but it's remit does not extend to diagnosing mental health conditions so there is nothing for the law to establish here. We already have laws to cover behaviour which may arise from a sexual paraphilia.

No one has parked their brains but there is such as thing as being so open minded you run the risk of your brain falling out.

Eejitmum101 · 21/06/2024 09:25

Don’t have much to say but agree with everything @Italianita said said
goodluck OP

bombastix · 21/06/2024 09:26

Honestly I would say that the man in this scenario could have answered “I like the dress”. But otherwise his response was dire. Why do people think children need that explanation if that is what it was?

hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 09:46

@Caerulea thank you for your comments it is interesting.

I guess i need to emphasise my use of the word "might" here . This person might have AGP. And for me and my boundaries the prospect of someone who "might " have AGP is enough for me to keep my kids away from them.

Similarly if someone "might" be a paedophile, it is enough for me to keep away.

And yes, if they weren't a sexual fetishist and simply a bearded hirsute person wearing a dress , I would be making an assumption about them, that some could view as unfair. But I guess that is personal judgment and I would take the risk of perhaps getting it wrong sometimes

OP posts:
OneTC · 21/06/2024 09:53

BobbyBiscuits · 20/06/2024 18:53

@Emotionalsupportviper I didn't take it that OPs colleague was 'perving' on her child. If that were the case then HR and even the police should be involved. He was inappropriate in language but that's different from perving!?

Edited

When you present as your fetish, then everyone who participates in it is doing some kind of low level sex act on you. The sex I have is pretty central to who I am but I don't try and get everyone else involved. If I wanted other people involved, that'd be fine, there are places I could go and do that, but there wouldn't be a 6 year old there.

IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine · 21/06/2024 09:56

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:35

H*ermenmunster
*
I think something said to a child (potentially in good faith) is a world away from a person touching your child in a pool; this kind of correlation is so extreme that it just kills discussion.

It's intellectually lazy - another problem in debating such an emotive subject. People just get triggered into extreme responses.

I feel uncomfortable with biological men in women's clothes full stop. But I do believe in an open expressive society and our present situation is that we do not all agree on what man and woman means.

That's where we are, I was asked to have she/her pronouns on my signature at my last job. This new world isn't going anywhere so we need to find ways to deal with it - that's all I'm saying.

We obviously have to continue to be vigilant at the pool.

1] touching a child in a pool inappropriately is not legal

2] wearing a dress to a party is legal

3] saying penis to a child is not sexual assault

We are here - so we need to engage with where we are realistically. Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

I don't want to live in that world either.

Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

You are the only one who seems to have an issue with him wearing a dress. No one on this thread has said anything about banning men from wearing dresses! They are saying men should be 'banned' from claiming they are women and from talking about their penises to 6 year olds.

CharlotteBog · 21/06/2024 10:03

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:53

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

Not brain parking, pluralistic society, debating complex issues - all good.

The man should not be exerting his right to those things by talking about his genitals with an unknown child.

I have a teenager. He is accepting of people - he doesn't really question the gender of his mates. He's attracted to females and has lots of friend of both sexes. What he has little time for is people being loud about whatever they're identifying as - just get on with your life.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 10:05

I am genuinely trying to be more open minded; I'm not trying to say what happened n OP's post is a great thing.

I think there are huge issues with the idea that you can identify into a different sex from your birth sex. I have huge concerns about women's spaces, women's sport and child safe guarding. These all depend on the ability to be clear about biological gender - this clarity is being blurred by youthful pangenderism, medical madness, pharmaceutical greed, woke pandering and genuinely badly intentioned sexual predators and adventurers.

It's such a festival of different motivations and the good are mixed in with the bad. Women, children and lesbians are not the winners here.

But I still want to be more open minded as my kids have made me less pedantic. They also share some of my concerns.

But on the positive side women's sport is starting to get its act together. The Tavistock debacle is now reported on and having an impact. Greater awareness of AGP is helping to show why women fear self ID and Access All Areas transwomen.

Women in prison are one of the groups I have huge concerns about where the definition of what a women means is crucial. I still don't think you should be in a cell with a person who is biologically male regardless of how you define your gender.

No one should say penis to a child - obviously - but the debate comes down to people believing that they have a penis and are a woman. Like Eddie Izzard.

It does matter.

Imtheotherguy · 21/06/2024 10:13

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:53

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

Indeed.

And had the man answered the little girl’s question with “because I like this dress”, or “because pink is my favourite colour” or something else a 6 year old girl would understand it would have been fine.

There is no such thing as men’s clothes or women’s clothes- if I own it it’s woman's, if my son owns it it’s a man’s- whether the garment has an inseam is irrelevant.

The difference here is that he brought his genitalia into the discussion totally unnecessarily- which could be from not having enough experience/understanding of children but could also be because he enjoys making a child think about his dick. Personally I wouldn’t risk my child around them because it isn’t worth it.

hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 10:14

@OneTC when it is presented like this it is all the more concerning. Uncomfortable to read it but important

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 10:30

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 10:05

I am genuinely trying to be more open minded; I'm not trying to say what happened n OP's post is a great thing.

I think there are huge issues with the idea that you can identify into a different sex from your birth sex. I have huge concerns about women's spaces, women's sport and child safe guarding. These all depend on the ability to be clear about biological gender - this clarity is being blurred by youthful pangenderism, medical madness, pharmaceutical greed, woke pandering and genuinely badly intentioned sexual predators and adventurers.

It's such a festival of different motivations and the good are mixed in with the bad. Women, children and lesbians are not the winners here.

But I still want to be more open minded as my kids have made me less pedantic. They also share some of my concerns.

But on the positive side women's sport is starting to get its act together. The Tavistock debacle is now reported on and having an impact. Greater awareness of AGP is helping to show why women fear self ID and Access All Areas transwomen.

Women in prison are one of the groups I have huge concerns about where the definition of what a women means is crucial. I still don't think you should be in a cell with a person who is biologically male regardless of how you define your gender.

No one should say penis to a child - obviously - but the debate comes down to people believing that they have a penis and are a woman. Like Eddie Izzard.

It does matter.

Im glad you posted this, it clarifies your position a lot and I'm in agreement with you on about 95%.

The thing I find interesting however is your reassertion that you want to be 'open minded' - you say it a few times. Yet at the same time you say this ...

It's such a festival of different motivations and the good are mixed in with the bad. Women, children and lesbians are not the winners here.

Which sums it up perfectly - you're right, women lesbians and children are not the winners.

So why are you so invested in this 'open mindedness' if you acknowledge it isn't helping key vulnerable groups in society?

Open mindedness as a broad concept isn't necessarily a good thing. I don't want society to become more open minded towards bestiality or pedophilia or necrophilia for example. Do you? I doubt it.

TLDR. I don't think we should prioritise open mindedness over what's good for society. Pushing the boundaries around acceptability isn't always a positive thing.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 10:38

Sorry, to add ...

What I think you're saying here is that you believe that men should be free to express themselves as they want, which can include wearing dresses. And we're all in agreement on that.

Where it seems to get fuzzy is being able to put down some firm boundaries. So the man mentioning his penis to a young girl. Absolutely not acceptable and needs to be called out strongly.

The fact that we can support men wearing dresses shouldn't impact our ability to draw a firm line where it needs to be drawn. Being open minded here is not a positive - not if it impacts our ability to safeguard young children.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 10:47

Thank you TheKeatingfive.

I certainly don't want to be open-minded at any cost but I also believe it's hard to be in a truly pluralistic society without everyone potentially having to put up with things they find uncomfortable and even wrong.

I think the gender issue appears to have clear rights and wrongs to many.

I am less certain than I was.

We are an integrated society and the only place to start from is from where we are now.

I think positive social change often starts in conflict but it integrates in the actions and behaviour of people motivated by love and compassion. We don't make the world better either hate IME.

Change is painful. I don't know how we will integrate these new views of human life but I am sure it can be done. There are some tricky areas but look at the quiet power of the Cass report. The slow relentless power of those American female swimmers.

I think we do need to adjust to these times and see what can be done over time. These things are so entrenched that the answers will have to evolve.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 21/06/2024 10:52

hermenmumster · 20/06/2024 11:48

i guess I don't want to get into the trans debate. How people want to live their life is their business. It is about mentioning a penis to my child. Someone upthread mentioned how i would feel if a grown conventional male mentioned his penis to her. I would be plain livid and less confused

I think this shows how dangerous all this is. You’ve acknowledged that if this man wasn’t claiming to be a special kind of “woman” man, you would have much stronger boundaries, and be able to see clearly how inappropriate his behaviour was.

You wouldn’t be “a bit annoyed” (which was the only way in which I thought you were being unreasonable - for under-reacting), you’d be “plain livid”.

But because this man is claiming to be a woman, the usual rules don’t apply to him. And it’s hampering your ability to safeguard your child/other children.

This man was talking to your DD as if they were peers, rather than unrelated adult and child: at the very least, that’s a denial of the power differential between adults and children, and an unawareness of the responsibility of adults to behave in an appropriate way around kids, because of that power differential.

Which is a safeguarding risk in itself.

Clearly we can’t know his motivation, but as you’ve recognised, he may have AGP, in which case he was performing his fetish in the presence of your child, and at worst, he’s a man who gets a sexual kick out of talking about his male genitalia to a female child. Which is obviously a much more serious safeguarding risk.

It is well-evidenced that men who enjoy cross-dressing are more likely than the average man to have other sexual paraphilias too; and yet we are living in a time where - despite our supposed focus on child safeguarding and issues of consent - we are expected to extend the benefit of the doubt to men who cross-dress in public more than to other men.

I realise that you are going to protect your child by not taking her to any more work events where he might be present, but I wonder whether your actions would be different if this were a man who doesn’t claim to be anything other than a man. I understand why you feel you can’t report this to HR given the culture of your company, but it would be good to think about whether you would if this was a man who didn’t claim a trans identity.

Because obviously if he’s being invited to “family friendly” work do’s, he’s potentially going to come into contact with other people’s children too. And you should be able to flag up this kind of behaviour as an issue, whereas it seems likely that the very most you’d be able to do would be quiet words with other parents, only the ones you think wouldn’t denounce you for “transphobia” of course.

And in this way we’ve moved back several decades: it’s like the times when sexual harassment in the workplace was ubiquitous and women’s only defence was telling each other to be careful of so and so, and try not to be alone with him etc.

Even though we’re now supposed to be living in a culture with vastly more awareness of safeguarding and protecting the vulnerable.

That’s what I mean by saying how dangerous this all is. It lowers boundaries, which increases risk. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 10:52

I think positive social change often starts in conflict but it integrates in the actions and behaviour of people motivated by love and compassion. We don't make the world better either hate IME.

Well let me cut to the chase and ask you this. Do you see men 'identifying' as women and having access to exactly the same spaces/services women have as 'positive social change'?

If not, what is the positive social change you think we should be aiming for here?