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Original poster

6 year child - stranger talking about her penis

434 replies

hermenmumster · 20/06/2024 09:58

Trigger warning : sensitive topic around Gender Identity

I was at a work event (private garden - bring family along deal) and someone there is a transgender woman- she was tall, bearded ,hirsuite and wearing a dress and heels.
My daughter (6) was roaming around with the other kids and i think must have asked the lady why she was wearing a dress.
She explained that she ´was born a man with a willy , and is now a lady ’

Something jarred in me about a grown person talking about gentalia to a 6 year old child.
What does the mumsnet think?
AIBU to be annoyed?

OP posts:
StealthSpinach · 21/06/2024 04:15

PaulAnkaTheDoggo · 21/06/2024 01:11

Why can’t people just go down the middle and say ‘their’ rather than completely misgendering? Why are people so caught up in ‘sex is determined at birth’ to just accept terminology probably needs a bit of work but being transGENDER IS a thing.

I have a lot of issues with trans women in female spaces, jobs etc. But the deliberate use on this forum to misgender is frankly disgusting. It’s a deliberate point, rather than even attempting to be ambiguous.

Because I refuse to lie.
Anyone born a male is forever a male, regardless of their delusions or internal feelings.
Anyone, male or female, can wear whatever clothes they wish.
I have no problem with calling anyone their name (whatever they decide that will be).
I will not use wrong sex pronouns for anyone, as I do not tell lies.

Needanewname42 · 21/06/2024 05:25

PaulAnkaTheDoggo · 21/06/2024 01:11

Why can’t people just go down the middle and say ‘their’ rather than completely misgendering? Why are people so caught up in ‘sex is determined at birth’ to just accept terminology probably needs a bit of work but being transGENDER IS a thing.

I have a lot of issues with trans women in female spaces, jobs etc. But the deliberate use on this forum to misgender is frankly disgusting. It’s a deliberate point, rather than even attempting to be ambiguous.

No woman has a beard and penis.

Italianita · 21/06/2024 06:14

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Original poster
hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 06:15

changedusernameforthis1 · 20/06/2024 13:15

That's so unnecessary - if the child had asked why a woman was wearing a dress, would she reply to say that she has a vagina? Highly doubtful.

I'm a transman with my own children, so I'm around other children quite often and sometimes kids have asked questions. My reply is always the same "What do you think? ...Oh, that's an interesting thought, you should see what your Mum/Dad/whoever is with them at the time thinks."

It's people like that who made me turn away from the trans community and continue my journey without their "support" because it's just getting worse.

This is a really interesting insight. Thank you for sharing

OP posts:
IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine · 21/06/2024 06:21

PaulAnkaTheDoggo · 21/06/2024 01:11

Why can’t people just go down the middle and say ‘their’ rather than completely misgendering? Why are people so caught up in ‘sex is determined at birth’ to just accept terminology probably needs a bit of work but being transGENDER IS a thing.

I have a lot of issues with trans women in female spaces, jobs etc. But the deliberate use on this forum to misgender is frankly disgusting. It’s a deliberate point, rather than even attempting to be ambiguous.

To me, and many others, pronouns are based on sex, not gender. This is logical, since pronouns existed long before the nebulous concept of gender as being different from sex.

You may consider me to be misgendering the bearded man with a penis, but I would consider you to be mis-sexing him.

IndecentPropolis · 21/06/2024 06:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 06:46

I think this interaction clearly illustrates the issue of new gender expression's main areas of conflict.

From a neutral point of view - the guest was being clear about the contradiction between gender presentation and biological origin.

This is the world we are in now and it is either to do with being born with a penis or not being born with one and what that means.

Identity and meaning are not fixed things but our culture is clearly changing and it's uncomfortable for those who feel the status quo is the best quo.

EasternStandard · 21/06/2024 06:49

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 06:46

I think this interaction clearly illustrates the issue of new gender expression's main areas of conflict.

From a neutral point of view - the guest was being clear about the contradiction between gender presentation and biological origin.

This is the world we are in now and it is either to do with being born with a penis or not being born with one and what that means.

Identity and meaning are not fixed things but our culture is clearly changing and it's uncomfortable for those who feel the status quo is the best quo.

Are you ok with other men, any man not one wearing something non conforming, talking about his genitalia to a six year old?

SoupChicken · 21/06/2024 06:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

10 years ago it would have been uncontroversial to say this, how did we get to a place where everyone is ignoring their instincts?

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 06:52

Identity and meaning are not fixed things but our culture is clearly changing and it's uncomfortable for those who feel the status quo is the best quo.

Sex is fixed. Always has been, always will be.

And the vast majority are not going to simply accept some bullshit notion that sex is not significant.

The pushback is starting

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 07:38

Im trying to be neutral as I have young people in my life who require a certain neutrality when debating all these things. I'm trying to see all sides because I think that works for me; I'm not requiring anyone else does the same.

Progress in this area seems most likely to occur where people are open minded and hearted.

I was brought up in the 70s and 80s where children and women & powerless men could be used as objects by men who could get away with it - no one ever needs to tell me about concealed sexual motivation in exploitative men.

We are evidently in a culture now where certain assumed rights are in conflict with newer assumed rights.

I have seen almost enough of the extremes of this debate now - and I don't disrespect anyone who is still in the trenches or the validity of their feelings - but, I also now feel that progress in more likely in the middle ground; notwithstanding all the problems you raise. I live with young people who do not see the world the way I see it, they have never been sexually exploited, they have not been aware of sexual exploitation close to them, so they feel the identity issue is sacrosanct and also they have that innocence and trust of people before they have kids.

I think we are in a new world and maybe have to try to consider seeking to move towards balancing these new pressures more efficiently somehow - I'm not saying there are no issues! I'm just being realistic IMO. As I live with people who have a different world view. I'm not saying they're right or that I am right. I live in a world of changing names and identities in the young which is hard to master. When your kids bring this issue home in the bodies of the dearest friends - then you have to deal with it. These young people are just lovely. You can't legislate this out of the culture.

The Good Friday agreement came out of a laying down of arms and accepting very different views of the facts.

You ask is it ok for a man to discuss his penis with a child at a party?

Well, no honestly I don't feel great about it; but, on the other hand - at least this is open and honest to an extent. When I was a child the bad actors were all hidden in plain sight and getting away with murder.

Also this man was at least honest.

I grew up with negative experiences of men dressing as women - I hated panto, I find drag uncomfortable but the individuals might be perfectly lovely people.

I don't want to live in a world where no one can express themselves in how they dress either. I love living in a fairly open society.

So I can see all sides but I think the child that heard this at least got an honest answer. It is about what being a woman or a man means at the end of the day and it's always been hard to legislate meaning and it's clearly hard to do at the moment wihich is why debate is so valuable.

Original poster
hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 08:03

OP here.

Have had a deep dive into the night about some of these terms raised on here.

-We were told that this colleague joining us was a Transwoman before they joined the team , but I am not 100% sure how they identify and didn't ask them. Perhaps it was an assumption they were a TW due to the fact they wore a dress. We are a very friendly team and therefore welcomed this person to a social and that was an introduction for them to us and our families.

  • The more I read the more I think this person might have autogynaephilia , as he is very clearly a male in terms of beard, body hair and musculature, voice etc but wears a dress and heels. For anyone else who doesnt know , this is man who derives sexual arousal from wearing woman's clothes .
  • The more I read about AGP the more I understand it is sexual fetish. Therefore having any person (who on my assumption only, has AGP) around my little girl who has outward displays of sexual fetishisation obviously now makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, and knowing what I know now to be forewarned is to be forearmed.
OP posts:
Original poster
hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 08:12

@Allshallbewell2021 you write

"You ask is it ok for a man to discuss his penis with a child at a party?

Well, no honestly I don't feel great about it; but, on the other hand - at least this is open and honest to an extent. When I was a child the bad actors were all hidden in plain sight and getting away with murder.

Also this man was at least honest. "

i was wondering if you meant how you sounded.
If a pervert talks about his penis in public to a child it is better than behind close doors? Is there a scale of when it is appropriate for men to bring up genatalia discussions with 6 year olds?!

If a man inappropriately touched a child in public swimming pool is it better because it is in public and not closed doors because they are being open and honest?

I think this person at the party would argue they were being open and honest with my 6 year old, but does it make it any less inappropriate?

OP posts:
FannyCann · 21/06/2024 08:17

@hermenmumster
I wouldn't approach HR and I'd be very careful which colleagues I spoke to about this. Maybe just those with young children.
You are likely to be marked as a transphobe and a gossip with bad intentions. Especially as you say, you didn't directly see/hear the incident.

What I would do is watch and wait. Start documenting every time this person says or does something inappropriate. Because he will. I'd take care not to use the toilets the same time as him or use a different one to the one he uses. I wouldn't engage in any personal conversation at all with him. If he starts discussing his personal life just turn on your heel and walk away. Or pick up the phone and start talking and ignoring him.

Even work colleagues with children may not recognise the risks, as you say your workplace is very embedded in stonewall culture. The extent to which some people won't deviate from what they consider to be inclusive is illustrated in this podcast at 23:20
Andrew Gold discusses how he met a woman in Germany who works with men who admit they are attracted to children but don't act on it. So to prove her faith in them she lets them babysit her own children. 🤦‍♀️

It's quite a good podcast overall although I'm not a huge fan of Andrew Gold. He's jumping on too many bandwagons to build his audience.

So don't expect colleagues to see your point of view - you are more likely to be scolded just as you have been on this thread.

If you have a rainbow lanyard now is the time to bin it and buy yourself a neutral one.

Original poster
hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 08:28

@FannyCann thank you. I am an agreement with you having slept on it about HR. I think it has the potential to backfire massively and I can very easily see how I will be labelled as a transphobe. I cannot stress the impact and reach of Stonewall in my organisation. The Stonewall index and aims , has at times been the most important thing on the table to be discussed, top of the agenda - ahead of extremely important departmental matters.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 08:34

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 07:38

Im trying to be neutral as I have young people in my life who require a certain neutrality when debating all these things. I'm trying to see all sides because I think that works for me; I'm not requiring anyone else does the same.

Progress in this area seems most likely to occur where people are open minded and hearted.

I was brought up in the 70s and 80s where children and women & powerless men could be used as objects by men who could get away with it - no one ever needs to tell me about concealed sexual motivation in exploitative men.

We are evidently in a culture now where certain assumed rights are in conflict with newer assumed rights.

I have seen almost enough of the extremes of this debate now - and I don't disrespect anyone who is still in the trenches or the validity of their feelings - but, I also now feel that progress in more likely in the middle ground; notwithstanding all the problems you raise. I live with young people who do not see the world the way I see it, they have never been sexually exploited, they have not been aware of sexual exploitation close to them, so they feel the identity issue is sacrosanct and also they have that innocence and trust of people before they have kids.

I think we are in a new world and maybe have to try to consider seeking to move towards balancing these new pressures more efficiently somehow - I'm not saying there are no issues! I'm just being realistic IMO. As I live with people who have a different world view. I'm not saying they're right or that I am right. I live in a world of changing names and identities in the young which is hard to master. When your kids bring this issue home in the bodies of the dearest friends - then you have to deal with it. These young people are just lovely. You can't legislate this out of the culture.

The Good Friday agreement came out of a laying down of arms and accepting very different views of the facts.

You ask is it ok for a man to discuss his penis with a child at a party?

Well, no honestly I don't feel great about it; but, on the other hand - at least this is open and honest to an extent. When I was a child the bad actors were all hidden in plain sight and getting away with murder.

Also this man was at least honest.

I grew up with negative experiences of men dressing as women - I hated panto, I find drag uncomfortable but the individuals might be perfectly lovely people.

I don't want to live in a world where no one can express themselves in how they dress either. I love living in a fairly open society.

So I can see all sides but I think the child that heard this at least got an honest answer. It is about what being a woman or a man means at the end of the day and it's always been hard to legislate meaning and it's clearly hard to do at the moment wihich is why debate is so valuable.

There is a LOT of waffle here.

However, while the support of people expressing themselves is fine (and I doubt anyone on here would disagree).

I feel that too many people have parked their brains in the name of 'progress'.

I don't see anything progressive about letting men 'identify' as women or tolerating men talking about their penises to little girls. What this is - is prioritising men's fetishes and/or mental health problems over the rights and safety of women and children.

That is definitely not positive for society and I'll keep fighting against it

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:35

H*ermenmunster
*
I think something said to a child (potentially in good faith) is a world away from a person touching your child in a pool; this kind of correlation is so extreme that it just kills discussion.

It's intellectually lazy - another problem in debating such an emotive subject. People just get triggered into extreme responses.

I feel uncomfortable with biological men in women's clothes full stop. But I do believe in an open expressive society and our present situation is that we do not all agree on what man and woman means.

That's where we are, I was asked to have she/her pronouns on my signature at my last job. This new world isn't going anywhere so we need to find ways to deal with it - that's all I'm saying.

We obviously have to continue to be vigilant at the pool.

1] touching a child in a pool inappropriately is not legal

2] wearing a dress to a party is legal

3] saying penis to a child is not sexual assault

We are here - so we need to engage with where we are realistically. Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

I don't want to live in that world either.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 08:36

OP, I'm not sure if this is a HR matter either. As it wasn't a work event (or not officially).

So I'd simply make sure your child is never in the company of this person again. And I'd keep a very close eye on him just generally.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 08:37

We are here - so we need to engage with where we are realistically. Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

Absolutely no one has suggested that - don't be silly 🙄

FOJN · 21/06/2024 08:41

The more I read about AGP the more I understand it is sexual fetish. Therefore having any person (who on my assumption only, has AGP) around my little girl who has outward displays of sexual fetishisation obviously now makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, and knowing what I know now to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

Public exhibition of any fetish is exploitative as it recruits all observers as participants in someone's else's sexual gratification without consent.

CharlotteBog · 21/06/2024 08:41

So I can see all sides but I think the child that heard this at least got an honest answer.

This is irrelevant. It it not appropriate for an adult to talk to an unknown child about their genitals.
You don't get to override that in the name of progress, honesty or inclusiveness.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:43

TheKeatingFive

"I don't see anything progressive about letting men 'identify' as women or tolerating men talking about their penises to little girls. What this is - is prioritising men's fetishes and/or mental health problems over the rights and safety of women and children.

That is definitely not positive for society and I'll keep fighting against it"

You sound a bit of a dictator talking about what you will "tolerate". And sorry for waffling ( rude for no reason ).

There is nothing parked about my brain but thanks for your honesty in expressing your lack of patience in dealing with a complex subject.

A pluralistic society needs people like me who can work in the middle of issues - this is where most of us live.

Maybe you live in a place where you can go on a March without any consequences.

All the best with that

Naunet · 21/06/2024 08:43

Also this man was at least honest

Wow, the bar is truely on the fucking floor for men. Unbelievable.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 08:44

CharlotteBog · 21/06/2024 08:41

So I can see all sides but I think the child that heard this at least got an honest answer.

This is irrelevant. It it not appropriate for an adult to talk to an unknown child about their genitals.
You don't get to override that in the name of progress, honesty or inclusiveness.

I'm not sure honesty is always a virtue anyway. Would we praise a pedophile for 'being honest' to a child about what their desires are? No. We'd simply want them to keep the hell away.

CharlotteBog · 21/06/2024 08:45

That's where we are, I was asked to have she/her pronouns on my signature at my last job. This new world isn't going anywhere so we need to find ways to deal with it - that's all I'm saying.

It won't ever happen in my current role, but the way I would deal with it is to say "No, I am not adding my pronouns". If someone needs to know my sex or gender (which are entirely irrelevant to the job I do) then they can ask me.

I certainly can't see a world where I would need to tell an unknown child that I have a vagina.