To think this is neglectful parenting?

[MissB77778]

My 2 year old sleeps at her dad's house every other weekend. She has absolutely no routine there, is allowed to stay up until whatever time she wants and often misses nap times. Her mealtimes are also all over the place. I know this because my ex has told me that he struggles to stick to the routine I have in place for her when she's with me, as he "cannot force her to sleep when she doesn't want to"

When my ex dropped DD off last night, I asked him about how her day was. He then proceeded to proudly tell me he let her "sleep in until 12pm" and she didn't have a bath until 1pm. Meaning that by the time my child got ready for the day she had been in the same nappy since the evening before and had already missed breakfast and lunchtime.

I do not want my DD to go back there because I believe he is being a neglectful parent. I need some outside opinions as I've thought about it too much and am now questioning if this is a dramatic response.

I think it's a different style of parenting. We've never really forced my daughter to go to bed before she's ready and she generally chooses to go to bed at a sensible time when she's tired. The issue is she's being parented differently in two different places so she's not going to learn to do that if she's being kept in a routine in one house and allowed to set her own at another house. You can't stop contact with her Dad over this, it would absolutely not be in her best interests to lose one parent because he parents differently, but you do need to work with him and find a compromise that works for both of you.

Op please consider that neglect is subjective. Leaving a child in a soiled nappy for 12 hours plus is obviously neglect. Raising children with no idea how to regulate sleep is neglect to me but may not be to others. Leaving a child to sleep to midday and miss key meal times - two in fact without checking on her is clearly neglect.

Yes pp can parent differently but the basics such as good, regular nutrition, adequate sleep and being kept clean are really basic.

I would recommend you negotiate bringing her home to sleep until she is older as a minimum. He does not sound remotely up to the job, and I would be concerned about her safety there. Contact does not come before safety.

Another one here who is sure your daughter must have woken up before 12 noon OP. Sorry but I’ve got three and never, ever has one slept past 9am and even then only if they were unwell.

Leaving her in the same nappy all that time is also dreadful. Her skin would have been red raw. I hope he gave her some nappy free time afterwards. He’s clearly a big baby and trying to get a reaction from you. I’m not sure why you’re getting a hard time from some on here

Guys this child is 2 years old, probably barely verbal and still in nappies. No, they shouldn't 'pick their own bedtime'. Honestly the parents here who are lax about routines rules and screens are absolutely the reason I have to teach tired and dysregulated children all day long. Parent your children!!

When my kids were in nappys and If was hoping for a lay in. I would do an extra nappy change early hours of the morning.

I never worried about afternoon naps Because life happens.

If I was invited to lunch out there's no way I would say no sorry baby / toddler is napping.

My youngest are 8/9 now. So older but their dad gos to bed and leaves ds on play station all night. No idea what time they go to sleep. I know there's a massive difference between a toddler and 8 year old . I'm judt trying to say people do things differently you can't control what others do.

As long as your child is not put in danger that's all that matters

I’d definitely be worried about how long she was in a nappy and how many hours she was ignored for while your ex slept. I do think it sounds neglectful tbh

@Ds8and9 so these very young kids are left alone, until whatever time of night unsupervised and connected to the internet via a games console? Why? What's wrong with some boundaries?

I agree I don't allow it. I can't control what their father does . Even if I said that's not on etc he would liar to me anyway.

I have DTs who are the same age as yours and when they stay with their father (I didn't have a crystal ball either to predict how much of a tw*t he would end up being!) he doesn't stick to the routine I have in place for them, and which I know keeps them happy and settled.

It's very easy for people to say "oh let him do his own thing" but I pay the price for the coming days when they are overtired and overstimulated because of how he parents. So I completely understand.

I really don't understand how any 2 year olds would sleep in until noon! Mine have never slept in beyond 7:30am! I suspect he slept in and your child was left awake and unsupervised.

On the other hand- he might be stealth boasting "oh DC sleeps so well for ME!" My ex-DH likes to do this too...

My 2 year old often is in her nappy for over 12 hours - she sleeps 8-8 and put her nappy on after bath so she'd prob have it it on for 13 hours. I think this is pretty unavoidable.

BUT I have never known a 2 year old to sleep until noon unless they are very poorly. Even if they went to bed late this would be extremely unusual. I agree it's bonkers that he let this happen. Do you believe he was concerned? Was he checking on her? I'd be going out of my mind

I guess I just don’t see why it’s a massive deal if kids eat an extra meal late night before and skip breakfast some days or if lunch is 1:30/2 vs 12 some days or if nappy is worn midnight - noon vs 7pm-7am some night when they sleep well.
If your child thrives on routine I suppose it’s a bit shit not to give them one but ultimately many children are also pretty flexible and will be fine with or without things being done on a fixed schedule. If it’s more he’s messing up the way you’d like to parent I sympathise but don’t think he’s doing anything wrong really. If it’s more he’s messing up a routine your child needs to function then that’s pretty shit.

It’s poor parenting but it doesn’t meet the legal threshold for neglect, which would warrant involving the authorities and looking at removing custody.

I don't blame you for finding this extremely annoying. I was only-slightly jokingly told a friend that I seriously considered divorcing DH over his inability to get the children to bed at a decent time... except then I'd have to accept that during his time with the children they wouldn't get any sleep at all and that would be worse as I wouldn't be there to sort it out after.

But you are also being a little OTT re the meals. Children can miss meals, especially if they were sleeping. I imagine she slept in a bit, at worst, she woke up late and he ignored her for a bit but she clearly wasn't making a massive song and dance as even a shit dad would wake up.

It's bloody annoying though, especially as inevitably it impacts you over the week.

Can you swap to her having her overnight on a friday? So you've got more of a chance to get her settled again before the week starts?

A parent this lax is going to be equally lax about security and safety.

Lazy but not neglect. She missed one meal and had a slightly later lunch. Perhaps she had a late snack?
Routine is not everything OP but it helps .
I would talk to him about how tired she was the next day and ask for his help with routine

it is a horrible way to treat a 2 year old imo
really lazy @MissB77778
i hope you can change his attitude towards parenting

you cannot seriously live like this,
of course children need bed times as decided by parents not the child!

I wouldn’t be letting her go back for an overnight if he was allowing a 2 year old to choose her own bedtime and not get up until 12. It’s just lazy parenting and if he couldn’t be arsed to step up to the mark then he wouldn’t be having her overnight imo. It makes me wonder what his mothers opinion is on this if he’s staying there and she’s working the next day. It makes you wonder what else he’s lazy about when he has her tbh.

I don’t know if you’ve replied to the wrong post because not once have I said she needs to cut contact. I’ve said multiple times that she needs to document with a professional and seek advice. She’s asked for advice so we’re giving it to her. In my personal opinion meal times and changing your child isn’t about finding your feet. She’s not a young baby, she’s two, she’s in nursery. It’s basic care. If you can’t do that then you shouldn’t have unsupervised contact for as long as he is. He needs to recognise he’s not looking after her as he should be and either get on board or stop having her for overnights until he can if he’s really struggling that badly and that’s giving him the benefit of the doubt big time. If he’s struggling why is he proud of breaking her routine and not making a single amount of effort to reach out for help? There’s no evidence in this thread to back up what you’re suggesting at all so you’re just making stuff up to suit your own narrative when you have no clue. The only person who has any idea here is the OP but you seem to think you know more of what’s going on that she does. So please do enlighten us all, we would love to hear it? He’s not struggling at all, he’s just being lazy. It gets easier to put older children’s routines into place when they have a structured life yes, not if there’s been years of the child being allowed to skip meals and sleep and do whatever they like when they like because it’s easier for the parent to just let them do what they want than bother to stick to a routine. Have you ever tried putting a child into a routine where they’ve been given zero boundaries by a parent? Absolute nightmare. You see on here all the time one parent who works hard to give them a good routine and the Disney parent who can’t be assed with structured parenting because it’s too much like hard work. It’s not even as though he needs to build a routine from scratch because OP has done all of the donkey work to ensure he wouldn’t need to. She doesn’t just need a routine when she’s older, she’s in nursery full time now because her mum is a full time worker. She needs it now. It’s not fair on the child who will struggle with her routine being broken because he can’t be bothered. She needs routine now because good parents who want to co-parent effectively work together to keep everything in such a way that a child knows what to expect. It creates much less anxiety for a child who has structure. Children that already have good routines in place in multiple places are very easy to get into a good routine elsewhere because as I’ve mentioned multiple times their body clock and metabolisms are already used to working off a set amount of sleep and receiving meals regularly at around the same time. Again it’s all about having higher acceptable standards and stop making excuses for rubbish parenting. You seem to have totally missed the part where he’s abusive and dipped in and out of her life for her earliest years. Abusive people typically don’t make wonderful parents. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact.

I imagine that style of parenting could work for a family that are self employed and home educate and just eat and work and sleep when they feel like it. That's not the lifestyle that this child has though and it doesn't sound like it's meeting her needs.

What time did she GO to sleep. Its perfectly fine not to wake a sleeping child to change a nappy, child 'can' sleep up to 12 hours in 1 nappy perfectly safely and hes right you can't force them to sleep longer than they need so she slept as long as was suitable to her.

Why would she need a bath then? a bath first thing after waking up is weird.

You sound controlling to be honest, its really not that big of a deal and 'breakfast' is simply the first meal after you wake up regardless of time. Just because you believe in made up 'time routines' doesn't mean other parents have too. He is equally the parent and can choose the sleep pattern on his time that he wants even if thats not 'your way'.

Its in no way 'neglect' just because its not what you do and its actually insulting when people compare their 'opinion' to actual neglect/abuse. Children die from being overlooked in the over stretched system because people just want to be petty to their ex's or family etc... and its really NOT acceptable.

this sounds chaotic and definitely not ideal for your daughter especially if she is used to routine with you. I don't know if it counts as neglect - I think ultimately if she is fed, rested, clean etc then nobody would legally do anything about it - but it really doesn't sound great and if I were in your shoes I'd also be deeply distressed by it. Doesn't sound like your ex is taking her needs particularly seriously, or centring her in his life.

Keep notes of everything, is all I can say right now. Try to have these conversations by text/email so there is a paper trail from him. It may not amount to anything but it's better to have it all in hand if things were to escalate in future.

So sorry you're in this position. It must be awful to be handing your toddler over to someone whose approach is so different and so apparently lacking in care or understanding.

He's being neglectful as so many people have said, and while this one off might not be enough to stop contact, if you can show its part of a wider pattern you'll have a stronger case.

From now on keep a diary and document everything.

We seriously do and it works well. We've allowed her to learn to recognise her "tired" cues and will say when she's ready, "I'm tired, can I go to bed now?" and she goes and gets her PJs on, does her teeth, then we read stories for a bit and and after that I cuddle her for a few minutes and she goes off to sleep. Most nights it's around 8:30pm, she was flower girl at a wedding on Saturday and she chose to stay up until 11ish as the adrenaline kept her going. Bedtime has never been negative for her, she enjoys it and she has a choice when it happens.

Has it ever occurred to you that there might be a reason why so many adults ignore their own tired cues and end up depriving themselves of sleep? The concept of bedtime being something unwelcome and enforced is ingrained in us from a young age and we end up resisting it well into adulthood!

🥱🥱🥱 have a day off will you

My child needs to be in a routine because she attends nursery several days a week and has to be up at 6:30am. I am simply asking my ex to try and stick to some sort of routine so that she is not absolutely exhausted when she is handed back to me, which then has a knock on effect for the rest of the week. How on earth is this being controlling?