To think this is neglectful parenting?

[MissB77778]

My 2 year old sleeps at her dad's house every other weekend. She has absolutely no routine there, is allowed to stay up until whatever time she wants and often misses nap times. Her mealtimes are also all over the place. I know this because my ex has told me that he struggles to stick to the routine I have in place for her when she's with me, as he "cannot force her to sleep when she doesn't want to"

When my ex dropped DD off last night, I asked him about how her day was. He then proceeded to proudly tell me he let her "sleep in until 12pm" and she didn't have a bath until 1pm. Meaning that by the time my child got ready for the day she had been in the same nappy since the evening before and had already missed breakfast and lunchtime.

I do not want my DD to go back there because I believe he is being a neglectful parent. I need some outside opinions as I've thought about it too much and am now questioning if this is a dramatic response.

I disagree. Not meeting usual meal times and changing her as frequently as she should be is low level neglect. Shall we ingore forms of neglect unless it’s severe? No, of course not because that is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, culturally in Spain it is very different but that’s as a country on the whole. In Spain it’s a social norm not just for children but for adults and children alike to nap/rest/ take a break and for shops and businesses to close and then reopen until later on in the day. Hence, why later bedtimes etc is common. This isn’t Spain and not remotely the same as what we are talking about here. Routine is vital for children and as she has such a necessary structured routine the majority of the time at her mother’s house, the child will be used to sleeping/waking/ eating at certain times. Her body clock will be used to a certain amount of sleep that she will rely on to function in her day to day life. Her metabolism will be used to eating certain times of the day, again to function. She may be a toddler but she is human after all and adults and children alike benefit from healthy eating and sleep schedules for a reason. I cannot believe I have to explain this basic science to another adult who has the apparent brain power to be disrespectful to a good, hardworking and caring mother that’s concerned for her child’s well-being; but not to consider why it would be neglectful to hamper a child’s routine when it will make that child’s life difficult. So yes, that’s neglect. It’s not disrespectful to “actually” neglected and by that I think you mean severely neglected children. Neglect is neglect, minor or severe. Get some standards for goodness sake. All children deserve a good quality of life and this shit show father isn’t meeting that for his child.

Your DD has a right to a relationship with her father. What you describe may not be ideal in your eyes (or mine!) but she's not being harmed by it from the information you've given.

Stopping contact between your DD and her father in this situation is not fair to your daughter so please don't do it. Having a start/stop relationship with her father is likely to be more harmful to her in the long run.

You may just have different parenting styles. I know it can be hard to accept when someone doesn't do something your way but it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just different. Can you talk to him about your concerns? If he was pleased with himself he might really be trying and thinking he's done a good job but just not have a clue. Perhaps he needs some guidance/assistance?

Good luck.

I think people are interpreting your question in two different ways:

• is this neglect in terms of the court definition to withhold contact - no
• is this shit lazy parenting - definitely.

I would put your concerns to him in writing (text or email) and keep a log of incidents like this.

That way you have a paper trail. I would attempt to offer advice or solutions rather than just berate him.
Basically view any contact you have with him through the lense of someone who may one day have to make a decision about this.

It won't be good for your daughter long term and will be problematic as she gets older.

I'd give him opportunities to address it and if it doesn't improve I'd pay a solicitor to write a legal letter stating he can't have her over night.

This can of course be challenged and isn't binding. I'm just wondering from the perspective of the person you have described if he would bother to get his own solicitor to do this? Maintain day time contact though.

It is surprisingly late. My eldest stayed up for midnight mass at that age and only slept until 9am, they are all different though.

Fuck sake. If this was a complete one off I'd say you were being harsh but every other weekend... he's taking the piss.
Surely anyone who has had toddlers can understand how this messes up the routine you work hard to put in place?
DS has been up late, only for holidays or special occasions, and it throws him for at least two days after. And he's not putting up with the over tiredness afterwards is he?
I'd personally not stop contact completely but wouldn't allow any overnights unless he can pull his finger out of his arse.

When DS has stayed up late he may have slept in a little, around an hour after his usual time. But not 12. This woman, the resident parent says this toddler usually wakes no later than 8. I believe her. This isn't a difference in parenting. This him will being shit. Leaving a toddler for 4 hours is shit parenting.

Thank you for understanding. I'm wondering if half the people who have responded actually have children???? It doesn't sound like it

I think it’s just the word “neglect” which means a child is harmed physically or developmentally because of inadequate care. It’s a legal term. It warrants police involvement/social services. Does this meet the threshold?

Torally agree that it is poor parenting and a red flag to look out for more. It’s not a different parenting style / I don’t agree with that at all. Messing with a toddlers eat and sleep routine - to that extent.

OP you should have asked if it would be unreasonable to say you won't disrupt your child's bedtime routine to take her to your mother in law's celebration dinner. You'd have been told absolutely not and she doesn't understand the importance of routine 🤣

😂😂😂

I don't think routine is the most important thing in the world. I've never had routines with any of my children as we like to be flexible with what we do on the evenings/wekeends.
When my older ones are with their dad, he is parenting them not me, I don't tell him what to do with them as he is as much their parents as I am and this has been the case
Since they were small.

@ButWhatAboutTheBees

7:30am is a very early start for a 2 year old and is probably why she's tired.

Tell that to my toddler please...and come to think of it, just about every other toddler I know! They sleep 7pm to 7am at best!

I sympathise with you OP. I’m in a similar situation where my son only goes to his dads every other weekend and he has no routine and everything gets messed due to his negligent behaviour and by the time I get our son into a routine again, it’s time to go to his dads again. It’s exhausting being the parent who does the hard work and raising the child to hand them over to a parent who does the bare minimum. There’s an issue at the moment where my son’s eczema is controlled at home without a flare up and as soon as he goes to his dad’s, he comes home with a massive flare up. I suspect it’s because his dads home is not very clean and that dust is the trigger - but his dad is not interested in getting to the bottom of it because he knows he hands him back over and I get it under control again.

I guess my point of what I’m trying to say is that the parents who have their children minimal time such as eow think that they can get away with doing the bare minimum because it’s a short amount of time. Yet if us who have our children full time put the minimum effort in and do what they do, we’d have our children taken off us for being neglectful.

How does not having a routine work with things like getting up for nursery/school? Were your children not tired in the morning? How does not having a routine prepare your children for adulthood when they get a job and have to wake up at a certain time/make sure they've had enough sleep?

@MissB77778 never been an issue. Sometimes they were a little tired if we'd been out in an evening but with my older ones now teens, my little ones have to stay up sometimes, due to picking up from clubs and activities.
Do adults have routine? Sometimes I go to bed at 9pm sometimes 1am. I still get up for work as it's what I have to do.
My older ones have decided their own bedtime since they became teenagers, they sleep when they're tired. Never caused an issue with school.

It's really annoying and inconsiderate to you, and probably pretty lazy parenting, but it's not neglect. The meals and the nappy are a red herring, it's the staying up all night that's the issue, but again, that isn't neglect, it's just not great for her or you. I say that as a someone who co-parents two children with someone who is much more lax about routines and screens than I am, though he's not nearly as bad as your ex by the sound of it. The really frustrating thing is the dads in these situation end up being seen as the fun ones because the mums are the one doing all the day to day "boring" routines and making them go to bed on time! It's infuriating.

The only thing you can do is talk to him about how tired she is during the week if she stays up all night at the weekend, and hope that he cares about that.

I understand what you’re saying but my point is if his parenting is allowed to continue into later on in her life, particularly if he fights for 50/50 or even every weekend when she starts school it will absolutely harm her. If this was an older child who had no fixed bedtime, missing meals, not having their teeth cleaned etc then people wouldn’t hesitate to call it neglect. If the OP posts similar years later people on here would say “well, you had evidence of neglect years ago but you did nothing and allowed it to snowball because you put it down to him having a different parenting style ” as others would happily have it on this thread. He has form for being abusive, abusive people only care about themselves. Good parents respect and work hard to keep a child’s routine the same and don’t abuse their other parent. I’d argue messing with her routine to that degree that often is harming her now. I would raise concerns myself if it were my child with my HV or nursery and have my concerns officially recorded by a professional as evidence for preventative measures in the future even if it’s not considered by some enough now. The likelihood is if she is in a routine and wakes at 8 you can guarantee she was awake at 8 her dads too because child or adult that’s how the human body clock works when a person is in a structured routine. Based on that, there is a very strong chance she’s been left for four hours awake in a soiled nappy without adequate food for an extended period of time. That is harming her physically. He clearly sees no fault in his behaviour, so he won’t change it. He has proven he cannot be bothered to work in the best interests of his child.

Oh @orangeleopard feel for you so much with the eczema, I have the same issue where my son's eczema often flares up at his dad's, though luckily his dad actually does care and sort of tries to hoover and wash sheets etc but not enough.

Uh oh.. it wouldn't be right for you to prevent her staying with her dad or seeing him because he's doing it differently to you. That's her dad, she probably loves him & he loves her, that matters.
Maybe make some practical suggestions, 'she seems really happy with x whenever she's staying at yours, maybe she could do with keeping to a routine...of course I'd never patronise you by telling you how to parent of course you know this'....etc etc. Perhaps you could try this approach.
Don't stop her seeing him that seems like an over reaction

This sounds so tough, I honestly couldn’t stand the thought of my daughter not being cared for properly.

Yes you may not be able to prove that this is neglect, but it certainly raises red flags, and as other people say you should make sure your concerns are formally recorded with health visitor/ social worker. Yes it may not stop contact but if you ever go to children’s panel etc this is the sort of thing they want to know about.

At the end of the day I think you need to trust your gut and you know better than anyone else on this thread what’s likely to be going on. It certainly sounds like this is not a case of struggling to get to grips with the routine and more he just can’t be bothered to make sure she is being properly cared for.

I am one of the ‘no routine types’ but my 16 month old is always in bed between 7-9pm. You know your daughter best, mine is a nightmare for anyone else so can see how someone else would really struggle to get her settled and then have a later night, but even still I’m calling bullshit at the noon wake up.

Focus on keeping a record/ evidence if possible. Did she come hungry/thirsty? Nappy rash? Clean/ clean clothes. Even general mood. Easy to go to bed/waking up in morning? All these things are small but if you are seeing patterns then it is a cause for concern and speak to health visitor.

That seems very harsh, you can't know whether this guy is simply finding his feet. You also don't know the other side of the story. There will be one.
You can't simply stop parents from seeing their child because of bedtime & suspicion. The harm it does to children to break important relationships is devastating. And they often don't recover.
How about encouraging the routine or talking to him? Better still talk as an equal parent.
As children gets older routines fall into place easier. It's frustrating that he's not as organised as she is, but she's suggesting removing him from her life or stopping DD from staying. That's a total over reaction

Not having a strict routine doesn't mean complete chaos, it's just more flexible and the parents react to how tired the child is. The main difference that I've seen is that the parent doesn't have a panic if their kid naps at the wrong time or they're not in bed by 7pm sharp.

Mine probably doesn't go to bed later than average on school nights, if he is he might be a little tired getting up for school but will then go to bed early the following night. He's very flexible with things changing at weekends, meals not being at an exact planned time, family coming over and staying up late.

I'm amused that you think having a flexible bedtime is failing to prepare them for adulthood, I'm not sure I've worked with anyone that has had to leave after work drinks because their mum says it's their bedtime? Don't most adults who know how to recognise they're tired just decide to go home for themselves?

12 hours in a nappy overnight seems pretty normal to me. Many toddlers go to bed about 7.30pm and wake around 7.30am next morning. No one thinks that is unusual or neglectful?

How does she know what time it was? Are you sure she’s got it right?

Obviously a challenging situation for you, but I don’t think a dramatic response is warranted, unless she is showing obvious distress or signs of neglect or there are substance misuse issues or other factors you are concerned about.

She missed breakfast and had lunch an hour later than her normal routine - not the same as missing both breakfast and lunch. He seems like he is caring for her, bathing etc, if she had a late night or possibly wasn’t settled over night and was sleeping, he was right not to wake her up. If she was hungry or uncomfortable she would have woken up and demanded attention?

He seems to be being open with you, not on the defensive, which is a good sign and it would be helpful to keep a dialogue going. Do you know why he struggles with a routine? Does she find it hard to settle there? If you can let him know how the change in routine disrupts her getting up for nursery etc, without going in all guns blazing, that could be helpful. If she has a bad nappy rash as a result, it obviously needs to be flagged.

MissB77778 · Yesterday 18:52
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Thank you! Thought I was going crazy after reading all these responses”

No, you’re really not. Some of them are batshit.