There's no such thing as an independent female

[Yoyodiet]

I'm so wound up! Earlier, DP said to me he thinks I would benefit from signing up to Andrew Tate's academy course or whatever it is (I like learning about making money online, more out of interest than actually doing it myself). I said probably, but I wouldn't want to fund him as I don't like him. He asked why and I said he's not very nice to/about women. He was aghast and we went back and forth, defending him for the most part when I was reading bits off to him from a BBC article to prove my point. I read the following -

In that same video, he described women as "intrinsically lazy" and said there was "no such thing as an independent female".

...and he was like 'yeah, no women can be independent, you need men'. I couldn't believe it! I won't bore you with the heated discussion that ensued but he genuinely believes that not just I would crumble without a man (him), but all women on the planet if men suddenly disappeared. We would apparently perish in good time because we 'cannot hunt, do electrics, fix a roof or change a tyre'. (To add insult to injury I have qualifications in electrical installation and engineering, I'm pretty sure I could also change a tyre if push came to shove).

Also, I said I think there would be less wars without men - he said there'd me more because women are bitchy?? I said I'm pretty sure men have started a lot more wars than women in history. He pointed in my face and told me women didn't even fight in wars til recently. I reminded him that men made those rules.. 😂

He genuinelyyyyyy believes I'd fall apart without him. Our relationship has been rocky lately but this really made me see a different side to him. He really made me feel like a lesser person and it's made me feel really disappointed since. AIBU to be lying in bed awake stewing over this???

@Yoyodiet how did the chat go?

My late DH could both fix a roof and hunt. Not a roofer. Once a crofter. Having hill rights he - like everyone else - hunted, rabbits mostly (anathema to crofters) and hares. He had a very odd experience when hunting a hare in winter, finding himself in a part of the island he had never been before (within a couple of miles of his croft it seemed from the time factor), and could never find again once he was on the road back home. Hares, of course, are magical and hunting them in spring is part of the rites of fertility to make sure the crop is good - the hunt is both sacred to Eostra and of her (stories abound of chasing a wounded hare into a barn to find a young woman there - cue quick exit, of course, for she is dangerous as well as benevolent).

Yuck. I wouldn't want a man with those kind of values bringing up my daughter. Tell him in no uncertain terms no more Andrew Tate, educate yourself , or it's over.

I would most certainly have to pay a man to do certain things for me, that I can't do. Things like fix my car, fix the roof, mend my boiler etc, etc. So in that sense, I would still have to employ men.

@somanythingstosay, no, you would need to employ other people, those with the skills or desire you don't. They don't need to be men.

Now, if a woman could do every job a man does, then I guess I could just pay another woman to do those jobs for me. So, I think the question is : are there any jobs that men can do, that a woman cannot?

The jobs you've described can, and do, get done by women. Just because they are male-dominated careers doesn't mean women can't do them. Of course some techniques may need to be adapted to take into account the average women isn't as physically strong as the average man, but that's it.

It's interesting to look at why there are still traditionally male and female jobs. I've heard the argument that women don't like to do the dirty jobs, but I dispute that. Just look at what carers and nurses have to do! Personally I'd rather like to work in sewers! It's probably social conditioning more than anything. I mean, for example, there are still very much "girls' toys" and "boys' toys", and the way the sexes are treated is often different, so this shapes us.

It's probably social conditioning more than anything. I mean, for example, there are still very much "girls' toys" and "boys' toys", and the way the sexes are treated is often different, so this shapes us.

It absolutely is social conditioning and societal expectations around the role of men and women in society.

Yes, I'm sure that's why AT trafficks and sexually assaults women, as part of a "justified reaction" to a claim very few people are making, not because he is a stone-cold psychopath who hates women. 🙄

Nice try at being an apologist for scum like AT, but no sale.

I'm not apologising for AT at all, but even a stopped clock shows the correct time twice a day and I agree with him on some of the issues he raises.

OP's husband isn't even pretending to talk about interdependence at a societal level. He's saying no individual woman is independent. He's trotting out the usual bullshit MRAs like Tate have been saying for years, and every dreary little misogynist has been saying for millennia.

@Euro24

I'm not apologising for AT at all, but even a stopped clock shows the correct time twice a day and I agree with him on some of the issues he raises.

Can I ask which ones?

In all honesty I would end a relationship with any man who agreed with or promoted Andrew Tate. The man is dangerously misogynist and is a rapist / human trafficker. This relationship would be over for me.

I read your op and honestly wondered why you’d waste time posting about it instead of kicking him to the kerb without a second thought, but then I saw you have dc.

It’s grim @Yoyodiet . I think I’d be having a serious discussion with him about raising the bar or risking losing you, but tbh that just feeds into the narrative of AT and his ilk. Maybe take a quiet look at your finances and start charting a long term course to freedom.

I have a teenage ds, autistic to boot, so the absolutist mindset adds to the problem. I’ve been trying to find a male influencer that I could steer him towards and I’ve yet to find anyone. Decent men don’t seem to be doing much bullhorning. (Very happy to take recommendations though) But I can’t even suggest who else your dp could listen to.

The idea that men and women are the same being nonsense. True.

The idea that women are harmed by promscuity in a way that men simply aren't. True.

That women want men to be overly emotional with them being nonsense when in reality they want a stoic man who's not going to break down over the smallest thing. Absolutely true.

That getting women to want men involves men being their own person with dreams and ambitions and NOT fawning after them (women) like a lap dog. True.

That women would rather share a highly successful man with another man than be in a relationship with a faithful sexually loyal loser.
Just so true how many wives tolerate a mistress and the mistress's existence is an open secret. Yet Mr Average gets left over the smallest in discretion. So yet again Tate's right.

The man speaks a lot of truth.

Oh wow, I never knew these facts about myself, us women all think the same of course with our fluffy little lady brains, we aren’t individuals with our own personal preferences. I better tell my kind, empathetic sensitive, faithful partner of 15 years to fuck off, because whilst he’s the best person I’ve ever known, clearly, Emory Andrew Tate III, the 36 year old rapist, knows me better than I know myself.

🙄

What a pile of mindless shit.

Are you aware, by the way, that there’s an awful lot of middle ground between your examples? For example, men aren’t either stoic or an emotional wreck, most are somewhere in the middle. There’s middle ground between fawning and being your own person too for example. Very strange that you don’t seem to recognise that.

He sounds awful and needs to go.

Re the point, I don't think women need "a" man, but I think everyone needs other people. I'm single and think I'm fairly independent, but I've recently had an injury that's meant I've needed a lot of help and I'd have been in a bit of a mess if I didn't have friends and family who stepped up.

I don't think anyone, male or female, is truly independent. We all need our employers, the health service and someone to call when we need an extra pair of hands etc etc

I don't think anyone, male or female, is truly independent. We all need our employers, the health service and someone to call when we need an extra pair of hands etc etc

This is true, but that's where friends and sometimes family comes in. It doesn't need to be a partner.

@Euro24

That women want men to be overly emotional with them being nonsense when in reality they want a stoic man who's not going to break down over the smallest thing. Absolutely true.

You realise it's perfectly possible to have an emotionally mature and aware partner without them 'breaking down over the smallest thing'?

All your examples assume there is no grey area. Men aren't either 0% something or 100% the same thing. My partner is great. He's in touch with his emotions but also strong. He earns the same as me doing a job that is frankly much more important than mine in that it helps people. He's my equal. Men and women are different, absolutely. But we are equal in our worth.

I'm sorry you've obviously had rubbish partners or only known men who fit into neat and outdated categories rather than being interesting, complex, fun people you can enjoy yourself with rather than seeing them as a tick box exercise.

Also you confidently state as fact that 'women want XYZ' when I'm a woman and don't agree (along with others whos have replied to you) so they aren't facts, they are opinions.

And the fact that prior like you think AT is any sort of example of a strong man when his ego is so fragile is hilarious.

It's always funny to me that he says men being 'emotional' is wrong when he seems continually upset, angry and / or desperately trying to appear 'alpha' while his cigars and bare chest just make him look like an insecure kid dressing up as what he thinks a big man lols like 😂

It's true i don't want men to break down over the smallest thing, just as I don't really want women to do so, but I also know that if someone is very stressed for whatever reason, then something small can tip them over the edge. I was once in floods over a broken breakfast bowl, which was easily swept up, but it was just one more thing on top of money worries, job worries, a health issue... it wasn't about the bowl. And I'd rather be with a man who feels able to show his emotions than not. I'd be more concerned about a guy who was never upset.

It's always funny to me that he says men being 'emotional' is wrong when he seems continually upset, angry and / or desperately trying to appear 'alpha'

Some people seem to forget that anger is an emotion. And that some men display rather a lot of it.

Nowhere did I say that I had partners who broke down over the slightest thing.

The point Tate is trying to make is that encouraging men to be overly emotional and being in touch with their feminine side is no good at all when dangerous jobs and fighting wars need to be done.

I agree.

Lol, right, and it’s women forcing men to be more emotional and feminine is it?! And remind me again, how come women never face war or danger? Is that why it’s ok for women to be emotional, because we never face anything bad, according to Tate? Do you think the women he trafficked were facing danger?

If those who disagree with me want men to be just like women than that's up to them. It is my belief that civilisation is truly f*ed if this happens but hey ho.

No one said men need to be just like women, false arguement.

Society is encouraging men to be more female that is true.
And the vast, vast majority of dangerous jobs and wars are carried out/fought by men.
Just because a small minority of - admittedly very - brave women do the same means little.