Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

Hell would freeze over before I hosted an ungrateful brat. Tell her mom no and do it soon.

My DM finds DN's behaviour challenging but thinks it's probably due to being abandoned by her father. She contributed to counselling/ therapy for DS and DN for a while. In a roundabout way my DM has suggested that DN sees me as a sort of second mother, because I saw her regularly when she was growing up and then moved in with DS when the divorce situation was particularly bad in order that DS could continue working.

I can see that I'm probably one of the safe people DN feels she can safely take her anger out on. I do kind of get it. But I still don't want to have her come and stay and act it all out on me.

I think you need to be much firmer with her. She likely won’t feel good about behaving badly so allowing her to do so is creating even more problems. I think the time to send the text you propose has passed. I’d send a message to each of them saying that you spent a huge amount of time and money on the last trip and her behaviour was totally unacceptable, and her behaviour at Christmas was even worse, she has shown complete disrespect and been very unkind and selfish, you will always be there for her but you expect a certain level of respect and good manners before you are willing to have her to stay again, and you also expect a genuine apology for her previous behaviour.
Did you take back the present? If not, how come?

No, she sounds like a spoilt brat who doesn't have any consequences.

A hurt and unhappy child doesn't throw an expensive present that she has actually requested in someone's face. She doesn't treat someone badly who's giving her and her friend a lovely holiday. She doesn't eat separately on Christmas Day because of her terrible mood.

Also while trauma does change things and people need support, there's still some gentle boundaries here. No matter what you can't treat people this way. Trauma is a reason to get help, not be abusive towards others with no logical consequences. I recently heard of a teen bullying another to death - awful social media messages, physical and emotionally abusive at school etc. That teen that did that had trauma. That's not a reason to do those things. It's a reason to get help for how you feel inside.

Stand your ground @valsays

please do not be a doormat

stop making excuses for her

Please don't give in to your sister, it sounds like she'd say anything to her as break! Your niece needs to understand that her behaviour last year and at Christmas has directly led to these consequences. Does she ever speak to you directly outside of these visits? I just can't imagine texting or emailing about the details of my arrival etc then being so incredibly rude to the host!

It would be nice if simply growing up is enough to improve her outlook but it wouldn't go amiss to have a sit down counselling session... But it sounds like she's rejected all your attempts to get to the bottom of WHY she's like this.

I hope you got a refund on your Christmas present!
Please say no to your sister. Your niece is old enough also to hear from you why you won’t be hosting her this year. This may give her pause for thought.
You’ve been the dream aunt but you need to pull right back and only send a card for birthday and Christmas until her behaviour improves.

Teens can behave badly

Adults then show them the consequences , sounds like your sister just accepts it instead

Thing is OP - yes it's shit for your DN to be abandoned by her DF - but that happens to lots of people (me included) and I would NEVER have behaved like your DN is doing. Particularly to a kind and generous aunt like you, who's never done anything but give your DN nice treats, stays in London, expensive presents, etc. Behaviour has consequences and her DF leaving DOES NOT give her a free pass to be an obnoxious little brat to you or anyone else. And if her DM is making excuses for her behaviour on that basis, then she's being massively unreasonable. As for wanting to unload her unpleasant DC onto you for a week so she doesn't have to deal with her, well I can understand why, but she's hugely out of order to expect you to just suck up her DD's horrible behaviour. Please stand your ground.

This is the way I'd go.

My teens are nothing like that but your sister is a massive piss taker as well. I’ve hosted my niece and nephew for several days, taken them out on trips. My DB insisted on giving me the money. There is no way he would allow me to cover the expenses of his DCs/friends in the way you have been.

It sounds like she could see you as a safe person and that could help to explain it.

You sound lovely and very generous, but absolutely do NOT have her to stay. It sounds like she needs a bit of a shock, and this could be it. Hopefully when she grows up a bit she'll look back and be absolutely mortified about her behaviour.

A hurt and unhappy child doesn't throw an expensive present that she has actually requested in someone's face. She doesn't treat someone badly who's giving her and her friend a lovely holiday. She doesn't eat separately on Christmas Day because of her terrible mood.

Of course they do @MILTOBE

That's literally exactly how they behave. They were rejected, now they reject. It's textbook, so your assertion that they don't be have this way is bobbins.

You would actually do your niece a huge favour by standing firm. Kids need boundary, even teens.

My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens.
she's a shit parent. If she tells you that, there's no way there are consequences for her child.

Awful rude behaviour from your DN, however, I would venture a guess that her annual visits to you are not to your DN's benefit but her mother's (giving her respite from difficult parenting). I bet that your DN does not actually want to come and visit you this year. She was probably acting out as she was made to visit you last year and hated all the activities you planned for her (my teens would also hate to visit the Globe for example). I'm not excusing her terrible and rude behaviour, especially at Christmas, but I think it's your DS making her visit you and she's rebelling.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

No,OP, I don't agree that this is normal teen behaviour. How ridiculous! I wonder what sort of circles your sister moves in if she thinks this is normal or acceptable. Also, you haven't any children (or have I misunderstood?) so why should you get involved with it even if it were?

The girl sounds awful and the only hope for her is if some brave person shows her there are consequences to behaving like a brat. You'd be doing her a favour.

Good God no. Not one friend of my ds would have behaved like this. Not a chance in hell.

Not normal teen behaviour at all. None of my dcs or their friends ever behaved like that as teens - or as toddlers for that matter!

I think you need to message your dn and say that you love her but you've found her behaviour towards you extremely hurtful and perplexing. Since she's ignoring your messages you can only assume she wants to end the relationship she has with you/keep contact to a bare minimum. Say you'll respect her decision but you are here for her should she ever want to reconnect.

And don't let your dsis bully you into having her stay!

It's her teenager - and if she is allowing her to behave like that on a daily basis, then yes, that is what she will have to deal with on a daily basis. You don't have to - at all. A consequence for both of them of the young woman's extremely bad behaviour is that she doesn't get to stay with you. I wouldn't be wasting my precious time or money on someone who is behaving like that towards me!

I have had two teens, both who have had some troubles dealing with their father leaving. So I don't think this can be used as an excuse for her behaviour towards you. They would act out every now and then to ME, but never to someone else.

It sounds like you want to help your sister and let her have a break from your dn. If you are still open to her visiting, then there needs to be ground rules. And if she doesn't adhere to them, then your ds has to collect her.

I absolutely would not have her friend over to stay as well. Perhaps she was acting out in front of her on the last visit? It's a privilege to visit a family member, especially one who treats and spoils you. It is an added privilege to take a friend along as well.

If she can agree to abide to your rules then perhaps give it a go. For maybe for 2 days this time.

But I absolutely would ask her if she want to come to yours, as no point putting all this mental energy into something that isn't going to happen anyway.

No I would not have her to stay. There needs to be consquences for her actions.

Well clearly the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Your sister sounds like a complete dick too!

I would firmly remind her that your niece is not actually your responsibility and you have NO obligation to host her and that's before you even factor in the extortionate cost of having her!

They're both cheeky rude fuckers.

Does your niece want to come and stay? I can't see any mention of that - sorry if I've missed it. I'm not suggesting that should necessarily sway you, I'm just curious as to where her head is with it all.

I feel sorry for all of you - sounds like DS and DN have been through a lot, and sounds like you've supported them through some tough times and must be hurt by what's happened.

I have teenagers. One is almost 16 and is definitely challenging at times. At a push, I can imagine her being surly and unforthcoming on a visit like the one you've described; I really can't imagine any circumstances in which she, or any of my kids, would yell at you and throw things in your face. That's quite a way from 'normal teenage' behaviour.

I don't see how you can have her to stay in the current circumstances. I think it's time for a difficult conversation with your sister, perhaps getting it clear in your mind what your boundaries are and what support you're prepared to offer them (if any) first.

Use the £1000 that you would have spent on her stay on a holiday for yourself during the traditional visiting period. If you are not about she can't stay.