Reform😱

[ForKeenDeer]

Gaining popularity by the minute. Scary times

your brother lives in this community too? Does he speak english? Can they leave this community or are they happy living there? I agree that closed communities are harmful. I've seen it myself. The female immigrants are the ones worst affected, always. The guardian reading lefties don't care about the deeper issues, just about projecting their virtue.

Finally! Someone said it! Muslims they blame Muslims for every ill in this country. 6% of the population is apparently taking over the UK and they want their country back.

Reform will privatise health in the UK. This means companies will profit from our illnesses, and corners will be cut to maximise that profit.

Look at the people who run the company “Reform Ltd”, this is entirely as you might expect - they are maxi-capitalists, aiming to profit by exploiting the people they claim to speak for and luring them into it with a false panacea, by scapegoating migrants - the only layer of society considered “beneath” them.

I’m not saying people are thick. But if they use their precious vote for the private company “Reform Ltd” they are making an objectively poor choice which will hurt them in the long run. When the underpaid migrant labour is gone, it’s exactly these people who will be underpaid and exploited, there is absolutely no way people like Tice & Farage would benevolently pay amazing wages all of a sudden. Reform is a vote for your own exploitation.

You think that reducing the number of people seeking employment will suppress wages?

Benevolence has nothing to do with supply and demand.

Many people on here are happy about being a minority in their own towns and cities. I am not. I think Farage is great and I will definitely be voting Reform. Don't care about being called 'racist' either.

Our pension system is a Ponzi scheme which is doomed to fail.
Government knows that but would rather gaslight the population and kick the can down the road by importing infinity migrants than make a hard decision for the long-term good.

Worst part is that all it is doing is making the collapse worse when it happens.

@AutumnLeaves5 Yes. I want more immigration, which means I have to make that view popular. How? Improve the product, and remove the blockers:

Improve the product = concede that there is such thing as bad immigration/bad immigrants. Reduce that (e.g. deport foreign criminals, demonstrate that illegal routes fail). I'm more libertarian than a "points system" suggests, but the popularity of that slogan during the Brexit debate shows there's a huge audience for immigration that is seen as legal and beneficial.

Remove the blockers = address housing and public services. Housing/planning reform is my top of my policy wish-list. Immigration can be a huge economic benefit to the UK (and it's also good for liberty and humanitarian reasons). But the benefits are not spread evenly. Address the reality that housing and public services are over-stretched, and you will reduce the perception that immigration is a threat.

Then, having made immigration as beneficial as possible, articulate the benefits. Economic growth, NHS and social care, expand the tax base. Some people will never be won over, but there's a large strand of right-wing though that is very supportive of people "improving themselves" through immigration. It's why so many immigrants and second-generation immigrants are Tories.

Thankfully, we don't have a big far-right, genuinely racist faction in the UK. I can only conclude that people who call all anti-immigrationists racists are more keen on feeling virtuous than actually combatting racism, or increasing support for immigration. Virtually no-one was ever persuaded of anything by being called a racist by someone they feel dislikes them. Surely any observer of human life understands that. And the quickest way to increase identification with the "far right" is to take a fairly popular view (concerns about immigration) and tell people that's what the far right delivers.

@ExtraOnions

"… it’s old fashioned Racism - they don’t want brown or black people living here (especially Muslims)… none of them are fussed about white immigration. "

No fan of Farage either but actually the same supporters were up in arms about large numbers of white Eastern European migrants - that was in part what drove Brexit.

Thank you. I'm so glad I'm not the only one to see this very obvious problem.

Immigrants age too and will quite rightly be entitled to state pension. Growing your population also means your population of pensioners will grow in the future. What then? Do we go on growing the working age population until there is standing room only.

Importing labour helps now but will make the problem infinitely worse further down the line and that is before we consider the effects of increased automation on job availability.

City or countryside it doesn't matter, we all know most mumsnetters are wealthy and probably don't live in the "multicultural diverse" places they claim to love.

I know a few people like that. Very much in favour of multicultural diversity, yet choosing to live in neat little villages, even though there is a very diverse (and noticeably cheaper) town just half an hour away.

I appreciate your balance, but you're talking about the 'benefits of immigration' as though they are a thing that exist but people just don't realise.

Economic growth: If you know how GDP is calculated then you know this is a worthless measure. Current GDP is double that of 2000 - do you think people feel richer now than they did then?
NHS: We are not reliant on immigration for this. The immigrant staff cohort is equal to the immigrant population, therefore it exists to serve itself.
Social care: As above, but immigrants are underrepresented (by half) in the social care staff base.
Tax: Unless each migrant pays more in tax than they take in services (£40k+ salary), they aren't helping the tax base.

Agree with this. The problem of immigration has been around since Tony Blair's open door immigration policy. I remember the protests from British tradesmen who had trouble finding work because they were being undercut by European workers. Remember Gordon Brown promising British jobs for British workers which didn't happen?

Freedom of movement only works if all countries have similar wages. The problem was that countries like Poland and Romania had a very low wage so it was obvious that we would get an influx in this country. Anyone who tried to voice their concern was shouted down for being a racist or bigot. That's what led to Brexit because people didn't feel listened to. Nothing has changed.

I think that language also plays a part. English is the most widely spoken second language in the world. Countries with English as their official language will always attract a high number of people looking to move for improved opportunities.

Ah yes, the champagne socialists. 😎 Quite a few on here, and LOADS on Twitter. Parping on about how racist everyone is who is worried about immigration, and what a bigoted piece of gammon everyone is who voted for Brexit. (Celebrities are the worst!) But none of them live in very diverse and multi-cultural areas, and they wouldn't want to.

Easy to champion all the boats being allowed to come in, and all the people being allowed to stay, when you are pretty sure that none of them will be living anywhere near you, in your fancy, middle-class village in the Shires or the Cotswolds.

Someone I know lives in a rural area where a piece of land has just been sold where they are going to create a park for 'travellers' to stay. There are 11 properties within 10 minutes walk of this piece of land - 5 acres - and all but 2 have put them up for sale. 3 of them my friend and I know, and they are the wokiest of the woke, and yet here they are putting their house up for sale, because they don't want to live near certain people. 😆

Many people said at the time that the things that were being said about Brexit weren’t true (and leaving the EU is a position neutral on legal immigration). Now the people who got angry about being told that by ‘the elites’ are angry again because it was proved to be right? I think there are many reasons to be angry, and Nigel Farrage is one of them. He’s now trading on the ‘stab in the back theory’ that Brexit just wasn’t done right. It’s sickening.

AmpleFatball · Yesterday 17:55
It is nuts to me that people are taken in by him, still. He obviously played a huge role in Brexit and it’s made everyone poorer.
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Reform still doesn’t have a realistic policy for dealing with illegal immigration (Farage admitted that the policies in their manifesto are unworkable and unrealistic) and that’s an issue that’s supposedly core to their platform.
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Also love to know how Reform could deliver on cutting taxes while increasing public spending…and how they’ll keep a state pension when cutting immigration to net zero.
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Farage is very good at appealing to some of the politically disengaged by voicing their complaints. What he and Reform are very bad at (presumably, because they have no need or interest in doing so) is offering realistic solutions.
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The epitome of a snake oil salesman”

Indeed. Bewildering, isn’t it?

One Reform candidate has stood down to give Tory Gavin Williamson, an easier run:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13510295/Tories-accused-dirty-tricks-Reform-UK-candidate-pulls-general-election-race-hand-ex-Cabinet-minister-Gavin-Williamson-easier-ride.html

True but

When AI takes over, the ones that were championing free movement of labour will be the ones shitting a brick alright.

It was okay dismissing concerned tradesmen/factory workers/retail staff as racist Liitle Englanders because FoM didn't directly affect them. But once AI starts to do the jobs of the middle classes - lawyers and journalists for example - you wait, they'll be crying for regulations to stifle its progress.

This 100%.

I remember during the EU referendum the compassionate lefties made a statue of a working class man to mock. Like an effigy. Can’t find a link now but it was disgusting.

Those with above average narcissistic and machiavellian traits are over represented among virtue signallers. The working class is their new enemy and a scapegoat. The deplorables who don’t know what’s best for them and should just be quiet.

Much of the modern Western left ideology is envy - it’s not that they love the poor, they just hate anyone better off than themselves.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-embery/eu-referendum-working-class_b_10761006.html

your brother lives in this community too? Does he speak english? Can they leave this community or are they happy living there? I agree that closed communities are harmful. I've seen it myself. The female immigrants are the ones worst affected, always. The guardian reading lefties don't care about the deeper issues, just about projecting their virtue.

He does. He's English speaking, my parents are C of E but he converted to Islam about 15 years ago. He really likes it (mostly) as he feels a sense of belonging but he's the first to admit there isn't really any integration outside of the mosque.

He could leave whenever he chose but his wife couldn't easily. When you can't read or write, or understand what a doctor is saying to you, you can't really live independently. And that's before we get to being able to support yourself financially so that you have free choice.

My Muslim friends are equally appalled as me that she'll never have the freedom or choice we enjoy as women but (as my brother says), she is not atypical in his community (or indeed others he visits).

Reform won’t get a single seat. Thankfully the nutters that vote for them aren’t compos mentis enough to garner support. They’ll just sit in their living rooms shouting about brown people taking their jobs and getting gifted free mansions by Keir

And by the way, this is highly offensive. I'm well-educated enough to respect others holding a different political view to mine. Ironic that your post makes you sound rather like those nutters you denounce.

Those with above average narcissistic and machiavellian traits are over represented among virtue signallers. The working class is their new enemy and a scapegoat. The deplorables who don’t know what’s best for them and should just be quiet.

Well quite and those virtue signallers are the first to accuse other people of being hateful whilst being some of the most hateful people I've ever heard express an opinion.

Just look at the number of insulting terms used on this thread to describe anyone who doesn't subscribe to their world view.

This.

They are putting the fear of God into the Tories and, if they should overtake the Tories in the polls there will be panic in Conservative HQ that will make the zombie apocalypse look like a Sunday school tea-party😂.

I can't wait!