Reform😱

[ForKeenDeer]

Gaining popularity by the minute. Scary times

@Anonym00se before I responded to allay your fears I thought I should give Reform's Manifesto a read to get a grasp on it/etc. Unfortunately they haven't published it yet...it's not scheduled until the 17th.

Before we start casting aspersions and concerns about, such as your 'fears' described above; would it not be better to see what Reform's actual Manifesto states before we start manning the ramparts?

Has anyone mentioned that Reform aren't a political party, but a limited company ? That alone is reason enough to subject them to torches up the arse levels of scrutiny.

I think someone did upthread, but a very quick search of Companies House shows that political parties can and do also own/etc Ltd Companies too, so that seems to be a bit of a non-starter really.

The funny thing is, from my personal perspective, is that normally I'm a Green-Socialist-Capitalst-Indie-Tactical-Floater voter that would probably have voted Labour or LibDem. But the 'outrage' and extremist views overlaid onto Reform has swayed me to voting for them.

The other really good thing is that I'm away for the GE so am going 'postal' this year so will get my vote in before I change my mind. And will return home to the Electorate's decision.

There’s a working draft on their website.

Exactly. Reform are a limited company with shareholders, the largest of whom is Nigel Farage. They are a for profit entity. Unlike The Liberal Democrats Limited, who are also listed on Companies House, but are a company limited by guarantee and the guarantors do not benefit financially.

They don't want to militarise the police force, they are just saying that ex military would be of benefit to it because they have a certain skillset that they can bring.

What's "newspeak"? And what is wrong with being patriotic. Blimey if you can't be patriotic about the country you were born in/ brought up in then there is something very wrong.

Why do you think that the military should share a skillset with the police? A country’s own society are not an ‘enemy’. My dad was in the army from 16 until he retired, and he’d have made the worst police officer imaginable. He was aggressive, sexist and extremely racist. I understand there are reasons why the army mould them to be like that. It’s easy to see that it would be easier to kill an enemy that you see as ‘lesser’ to you, but I wouldn’t want that in a police officer. They’re exactly the type that the police are trying to get rid of.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with being proud of your country, but it goes too far when other races and nationalities are seen as inferior. That’s not being patriotic, it’s obvious xenophobia. When you’re alluding to our country being somehow tainted by the presence of people who aren’t white British, it’s gone too far. “Let’s save Britain” implies that foreign people are dangerous.

Newspeak is a tactic used by fascist regimes. They dumb down their use of language to prevent critical thinking. It makes people easier to manipulate. On Reform’s website, they pledge to “Scrap daft EU rules”. No examples are given of which laws they consider to be “daft”. They target a demographic of people who won’t even think “What do they mean by that?”, they’ll just grab their pitchforks and start parroting it.

The key thing is Reform "members" have no say in the partys running.

AnonymOOse - You cannot make generalisations on the military based just on what your dad was like. Of course they are not trained to be racist. Don't be ridiculous.

Military personnel have great skills which would be ideal for the police plus many other professions. They are disciplined, work effectively as part of a team, great leadership, have critical thinking and problem solving skills, show resilience etc.

Who is saying "Let's save Britain"? Who has said other races are inferior?

😂

Use of patriotic slogans (Make Britain Great Again)

Patriotism is not bad. It's also not bad to want to make our country great again (since we all agree it's not great).

People conveniently see even positive things as a negative just because it's from a different political party. Blair's campaign wasn't dissimilar and I doubt the current Labour Party would disagree with making Britain great again.

The statement in itself isn't bad. You may not like the policies but we should be patriotic about living in the U.K. as others are about their countries.

Patriotism to me belies a belief that you and people like you are superior to others simply because you were born behind a particular arbitrarily drawn administrative boundary. It feels very simplistic and reductive to draw lines between identical organisms and then say “we’re X and you’re Y, and X is the best”.

Reminds me of the worst of football fandom. I support X and because you support Y I will verbally abuse you and physically intimidate you.

Or the worst of religion. I worship imaginary being X, and you worship imaginary being Y. My imagined being X is better than your imagined being Y so you are bad and wrong and I will treat you - an identical organism - as inferior.

Oh and I also think it fosters a mindset where crimes committed by your own government or monarchy either in the past or present can be ignored by society because of loyalty.

I quite agree with this. Patriotism bad.
Why do the Ukrainians think that they are so much better than the Russians that they can shoot at them for daring to come and settle on some land?

It's just an administrative boundary after all!

Patriotism isn't simply about believing one is better than others.
I am quite patriotic about my country of birth as well as country I live in.
I do my part (that's the actual patritism, innit) I am proudly X from my native country but with. I am not better than others because of where I was born or where I live but I am who I am because of it. If that makes sense.

I am intelligent enough yo know patriotism isn't racism. Sadly, some people are simply being racist but claim it's patriotism to make themselves feel better.

'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel'. I expect this has already been quoted but to confirm I offer you Nigel Farage, Tommy Robinson, Boris Johnson, Laurence Fox, et al. All populist, quick to wrap themselves in the flag when it suits them. All liars and truth fabricators. Dr Johnson would have their number.

What a load of bollocks!

Not at all. Patriotism’s sole purpose is to persuade people to do unreasonable and unjustifiable acts which bring harm on the individual for the benefit of the state.

Are you confusing patriotism with nationalism?

Nope you're still talking bollocks. I'm patriotic, proud to be English and I've never done anything which has caused harm to another person nor would I persuade anyone else to.

I'm intrigued as to why patriotism reminds you only of the worst of football fandom, and the worst of religion?

Do you see any positive bits of pride/belonging attaching to a country? If so, is there a word to describe that?

While patriotism can be overdone, I believe it's a natural and very useful sentiment, helping bind a community in which people are prepared to make sacrifices for a common good, beyond kinship.

If you aren't fussed about having a welfare state that may not matter to you much. There are countries where welfare is mainly delivered through kinship societies, with mechanisms to share spoils between regions, religions and races in a way that is seen as fair to each of those groups. Some of those countries make it sort-of work OK.

But if that's not what you want, I'd be very wary of tearing down patriotism. I don't think you'll find what you get is better, I fear you will find something worse.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Patriotism’s sole purpose is to persuade people to do unreasonable and unjustifiable acts which bring harm on the individual for the benefit of the state.

Like pay taxes, volunteer, and vaccinate? (Leaving aside, risk their lives to try to defeat fascism).

Even with the individualistic lens you apply here: a failing state doesn't serve individuals well either, so ties that bind and inspire at that level are useful.

And finally, there are many individuals for whom a national identity gives value and meaning and belonging, transcending race or religious or social differences.

The people I've heard the most sincere and vocal patriotism from have pretty much all been immigrants, mostly from countries where to be outside the favoured elite, or outside the majority group, is much worse than in the UK.

I almost said: yes, but that doesn't imply all patriots are scoundrels.

But in fact: no. The last refuge of a scoundrel goes much, much darker than that. To race-based or class-based hatred.

I think we can agree that race-baiting populism is a bad thing without confusing that for patriotism.

Patriotism has been, in many places, a bulwark against race and class-based tensions, or a way to rebuild countries torn apart by those things.

I think you can pay taxes to fund services, receive a vaccine to improve public health, donate blood, volunteer for something without any need for patriotism. You can do it for the benefit of all human life.

I just don’t see any benefit of having pride in any particular country. Country is just one level of many concentric administrative boundaries.

I understand. Patriotism, a problematic idea for many for an assortment of reasons. We definitely agree that the race and class baiting is, if course, despicable. No reasonable person would mistake it for patriotism of the simple 'my country right or wrong', the pageantry of the royals occasions or the Last Night of the Proms. Those are the events that unite us all. Dr- Johnson's quote refers to the baiters, the haters and the fact that they will seize the flag to wave immediately their dark intent starts to show in order to divert attention from their transgressions. Trump being an obvious example.