It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

Actually @Aladdinzane the reason I quoted that particular private school headmaster is because he reflected some of my own views as to inconsistency of views within the Labour Party towards this policy. None of us want more infighting and unplanned policies after Brexit.

The whole thing also raises very interesting questions about what “privilege” actually is. It is far from just being a financial thing, anyone with half a brain will agree on that. Emotional support and backing etc is just as important.

A child with a rich distant parent who dumps them in a boarding school (whether state or private) is not “privileged”. [caveat that there are of course, I am sure, great boarding school parents too]

Just as it is utterly disingenuous to state that an ex private school child who may have SEN who may have to leave their school due to this policy is not “vulnerable”. It is utter ableist tosh.

The argument on this VAT policy seems to be running at the elite level of elite state school parents vs elite private schools and is not accounting for the more vulnerable and more nuanced in both sectors, whatsoever.

It is all round disappointing reflection of the petty infghiting and division that modern day Britain has become.

Personally, I don’t for one minute believe that they are going to actually do this because it makes such little sense. Were it not for Brexit and that lunacy, I would be giving this 0 air time. However, as politicians now have form for nutty policies, who knows?

Yes, and many disagreed with him, including his own party. It’s irrelevant anyway as he’s not standing as an MP. Labour politicians in favour of the policy are.

My kids school has between 16 and 22 in each year. They haven't combined year groups. Normal state primary. There are 2 other primary schools within a 7 minute walk. Neither of them have full classes either. All rated good or outstanding, highly regarded local schools. None are academies, whether that makes a difference I don't know.

@Scruffily

"The informed estimate is that around 6-7% will leave. Yes, it's still a large number, but that is spread over all year groups and all over the country, and in many areas state schools and colleges have falling rolls and will have no problems accommodating them."

So private school enrolment for new pupils starting in September 2024 is already 2.7% lower than in 2023 despite growing in previous years.

Once the VAT policy is actually implemented then you can expect year on year further decreases.

Whilst a 6-7% decrease (from 2023 figures) seems a reasonable assumption for say September 2025, there will be subsequent decreases every year after that.

So personally I think a 20 to 25% decrease by 2029 (compared to 2023) is entitled feasible.

Any decrease greater than 10-15% means that the policy will cost more to implement than it raises in taxation.

Why is it an issue that some private school fees are covered by the army and corporations? Isn't the strong likelihood that they will continue to pay them?

I suspect from what you say about where you live that it may be close to me. There was quite a big expansion in state school places and new academies and free schools a few years ago, but now this is causing problems because they can't fill the new classrooms and schools. A number of primary schools have gone back down from, say, four form entry to three, or three to two, and that is now beginning to filter through to secondaries. It just won't be a problem finding places for pupils taken out of private schools, if anything the schools will benefit because each pupil brings more funding into the school.

The wealthiest in the country and indeed the globe are entirely unaffected by the VAT. Cut their “discount” they will still merrily continue their “positional edge”

@Araminta1003

"Personally, I don’t for one minute believe that they are going to actually do this because it makes such little sense"

It actually makes a lot of sense. Private schooling should have been taxed a long time ago, I for one am actually for making private schools work a lot harder for their charitable status too.

@VivX

The estimates for 25% or more are really poorly done.

Looking at the data on the numbers whilst private schools increased fees by 4-5% every year over the past decade, numbers increased. There haven't been a great number of parents leaving.

What is more likely to happen is parents may send their children to state for primary and then private for secondary.

@Beveren Why is it an issue that some private school fees are covered by the army and corporations? Isn't the strong likelihood that they will continue to pay them?

The army will get the same exemption that LEAs will for SEN kids, in any case this is a tiny % of children as are the companies ones.

Thanks for this balanced viewpoint.

No they are not. There are some state boarding schools.
I think Labour has said these will not get vat

“The wealthiest in the country and indeed the globe are entirely unaffected by the VAT. Cut their “discount” they will still merrily continue their “positional edge”

Yes, I am sure they will. But I doubt it will be in Britain.

Yes, Labour have committed that state boarding schools will not be charged VAT.

I’m not sure that’s really feasible. The lines on which this proposal will founder will be SEN, food and boarding.

Trying to draught a law in which VAT applies to private boarding but not state boarding or university halls or adult residential training colleges will be very difficult as well as inequitable. Same with food as that is not VATed either in educational settings.

I think may be difficult to craft the law but that’s Labours intention (according to Guardian)

@charitynamechange I think it is wonderful that the state school did that in your area. In my experience, state and private schools are equally rubbish at music and all advanced music is made outside of school.

my point was that I haven’t seen any school achieve high level music, some private schools may claim they do (or secondary showcasing an amazing level of music). We have only ever seen that achieved outside of school by very dedicated parents. The schools seem to just claim the credit without actually doing anything.

the reward for a music scholarship in the schools we looked at was at a minimum free music lessons, sometimes 10% of fees. So not really helping anyone that much, more “locking in” the good students as the music department then could insist that they attended all music efforts.

However, i have seen some brilliant community efforts of music where local charities arrange orchestras and music tuition. We are doing a lot of music outside of school and everyone who can afford to pay a bit extra in order to subsidise the music for less well off students . I believe that the teachers also are volunteering. There is also a wonderful charity for teaching music to partially sighted children where some teacher we know volunteer. I am not sure if I am allowed to post a link, but easily searchable.

but not seen anything in actual schools so lovely to know that it is there.

Tell that to the Conservatives too, then. That was a direct quote from Gove, not me. This was not just a Labour thing.

The Tories told it to Gove themselves, that’s done.

The other problem is SEN. Do you VAT all private special needs and disability schools? If you don’t then do you waive VAT for all SEN students in mainstream school? Bearing in kind VAT is not applied to an individual but to a service. How can you charge 2 students differently for the same service? What happens if you’re diagnosed part way through school, can you reclaim VAT?

@alladinzane

“It actually makes a lot of sense. Private schooling should have been taxed a long time ago”

So why do other countries not do it too then? If it makes such sense?

British exceptionalism at its best. I mean Brexit also made so much sense did it not?

Are we the only ones that have such problems with our education system?

Honestly to believe that all this vat raised will go to state sector schools is about as believable as all the money the NHS will get from Brexit.

net gainers are Labour MPs who can continue to send kids to private schools with now much less criticism

my wrong, I was under impression that it is May 2025. But I bet the reasons are as I stated

you are talking out of context. We were talking about the boarding schools where are the pupils from foreign countries. These are all private schools

Foreign kids of not UK residents don't go to state boarding schools

Why would it be difficult and what would be the point in charging vat for state funded education? You would be giving money to the state via VAT which would then just be handed back.

@HooverIsAlwaysBroken as I say probably a special case in our area - rural 'working class' brass bands. May also be the case in former coalfield areas. Every quarry and tin mine or china clay pit had a band attached and these remain, offering tuition to young ones paid for my strenuous fund raising. Fortunately the local comps are smart enough to run with the talent. The shame is that it often gets diverted (particularly in sixth form) to private schools who offer not very generous scholarships. I'm looking g at you Truro School and Wells cathedral School!
But parents are flattered, pupils are entranced by the shininess of the facilities. And the comps lose the talent. Not all of it obvs. But some.

@wombat15 it sounds like you aren't aware that parents/guardians still have to pay fees for state boarding schools. They aren't free like state day schools. Some also charge some fees to day pupils despite being state-owned https://www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/choosing-a-school/state-schools/state-boarding-schools. These are schools that give priority to families where there is a specific need for a boarding place that has nothing to do with luxury or elitism.

So either you have VAT applicable to those fees too, or you separate out VAT payable for fees for actual education from fees payable for boarding and extracurricular facilities and you open up a loophole for 100% boarding private schools to break down their fees to be £5000 pa for education (VAT applies) and £37,000 pa for boarding & extracurricular (VAT free).