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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

It's a private school one.....

1000 replies

Noangelbuthavingfun · 06/06/2024 23:11

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Persimonne72 · 10/06/2024 10:25

Newbutoldfather · 10/06/2024 10:16

@Persimonne72 ,

‘I agree with the notion that private school is simply a business but also you make a mistake as you assume here that all private schools have more applicants than places. And that is only happening with super selective schools. Most private schools have fewer candidates than they can absorb’

But then they aren’t successful schools and should fail.

I just don’t really understand the argument that private schools are a good thing and should be selective on income, but if 5% rather than 7% can afford them, it is a tragedy. I just don’t agree. I personally think (and I started another thread in it) that they should consider what they are there for, dial down the bells and whistles a bit and become more accessible to the middle classes. But, on that thread, many disagreed saying they wanted to pay for the bells and whistles.

I do think (and have stated previously) that current pupils should be somewhat shielded both by bringing the VAT in gradually and schools assisting genuine cases of need.

But then they aren’t successful schools and should fail.

Most of the private schools are not super selective. If most of the private schools which are not superselective fail we would have a huge problem with accommodating those kids in state schools. Perish the thought. That would be a mayhem.

Because of the rising cost of private school fees even more kids apply now to grammar. This year the no of kids applying to the local grammar was absolutely bonkers.

Also, there are private schools that absorb the kids managed out from state schools. Private schools which specialise in this field. There are private schools that have specialism for a particular type of disability. Also, the government pays private schools to take some EHCP kids that they cannot find a space in state schools.<= all these listed here have no 11+ exam or any entry exam.

Araminta1003 · 10/06/2024 10:25

“Will they cause catchments to become more elitist? No because private school students tend to come from further away than just the local catchment, so they will be spread out among the catchments for a range of good schools.”

No they won’t because people make a choice. They will now choose good state catchment over private school. State catchments for the very best state schools are very specific. So that is where the money will be spent. And those catchments will definitely become even more elitist. Unless the Admissions Code changes to stop that.

Mirabai · 10/06/2024 10:27

St Paul's fees are 32k a year, Eton is 46k, the "more middle class lot" never sent their children there in the first place.

Totally untrue and reflects how little you know the private sector. The rise of fees over the last 30 years out of line with inflation, has shifted the demographic fundamentally, globalism too has contributed.

Newbutoldfather · 10/06/2024 10:29

@Mirabai ,

I personally think they should choose to be more accessible but, as I said earlier, what happens will be driven by supply and demand and, if there is no demand for more accessible and basic schools, there will just be fewer private schools. It doesn’t matter in the least what I think.

If a school can better compete with a new state of the art virtual reality suite and offering polo as a school sport, then that is what they should do (that is a little hyperbolic but you get the point I hope). They are, fundamentally, a business.

They have been becoming more elite for years with little discussion.

Aladdinzane · 10/06/2024 10:31

". They will now choose good state catchment over private school. State catchments for the very best state schools are very specific. So that is where the money will be spent. And those catchments will definitely become even more elitist. Unless the Admissions Code changes to stop that."

Private school parents already live in the catchment areas for very good state schools.

However, you seem to have misunderstood my point.

Private schools have far wider catchement ranges, people travel further to get there. So whilst Doris might live next to Highlands, Winchmore Hill which is OFSTED outstanding, Matilda lives in catchment for Dame Alice Owen which is the Grammar, Ross, he only lives in the catchment for Latymer but also Southgate which is a good school.

Beveren · 10/06/2024 10:31

Aladdinzane · 09/06/2024 22:25

The competition for academic scholarships is even higher and a different process in most schools. Students there will be getting in the top 1% of results in the entrance tests, plus bring other things to the school, and for the very best full ride scholarships/almost full, have to meet merit and need based criteria.

Jane will get the bursary, Sally will be offered a place.

Jane's family will need to prove every year that they still meet conditions.

But the top 1% is only relative to the competition. Someone who gets the top 1% in the private school I went to, for instance, would probably be lucky to make it into the top 10% at the likes of Westminster or Lady Eleanor Holles. They would still get a perfectly good education and stand a good chance of getting into Oxbridge if they wanted to, so maybe in this scenario Sally could look at applying for a scholarship elsewhere.

Aladdinzane · 10/06/2024 10:33

@Mirabai

Totaly true and indicative of how divorced from reality on incomes you are now.

Someone spending 32k a year on fees is not "more middle class", they will be as said, in the top income decile.

Newbutoldfather · 10/06/2024 10:35

@Persimonne72 ,

‘Most of the private schools are not super selective. If most of the private schools which are not superselective fail we would have a huge problem with accommodating those kids in state schools. Perish the thought. That would be a mayhem.’

Most won’t fail but some will, and they should. Some private schools just aren’t very good.

But, if you understood how state schools work, the idea that it would be mayhem just isn’t the case. The teachers from the failing schools would generally need a job and some would move to state. And many state schools would be thrilled with more pupils, especially London primaries which are actually in danger of failing due to lack of futures! It would be manna from heaven. The main barrier for expansion of any school is facilities. Assuming these exist, the bigger a school, the better the economics are (which is why so many join MATs).

Newbutoldfather · 10/06/2024 10:36

Lack of pupils, not futures

Aladdinzane · 10/06/2024 10:37

@Beveren

"But the top 1% is only relative to the competition"

Indeed, but we were talking about what happens in schools for bursaries/scholarships.

In reality most people don't take a range of entrance exams.

Hoppinggreen · 10/06/2024 10:37

I think it may be useful at this point to explode some myths about Private schools and Parents who send their kids there
Not all Private schools are Eton et al
Of course we are well off, we couldn't send our kids to Private school otherwise (even with "sacrifices")
Most of us don't do it to avoid poor people
We don't only mix with other Private school parents
Obviously we would rather our fees not go up by 20% but it wont make a lot of us vote Tory
We aren't all from wealthy backgrounds or have help from GP's
We don't all think that Parents with DC at State schools don't value education
Not everyone has access to these "good" State schools that people talk about
It can be cheaper and easier to use Private schools than move house
Not all private schools are charities and some of us believe none should be
The majority of us are Teachers, Accountants, Solicitors, Police Officers, Business people rather than Bankers and CEOs
A lot of us don't expect sympathy over the Vat thing but think the glee is a bit shitty.
Some of us wish that ALL DC had access to a good education and are trying to do something about that but we won't sacrifice our childrens education for our ideology.
Some of us would actually be happy to pay the VAT IF we knew it was being ringfenced to help struggling State schools with extra resources etc.

Believe me or not but all of the above is true for us and the Parents of my Dc's friends who we have discussed this with

Araminta1003 · 10/06/2024 10:38

https://rossall.org.uk/flawed-proposal/

“Ideological opposition to the independent sector often develops from a sincere and laudable desire to ensure that all children have the opportunity to access an outstanding quality of education. Therefore, it is disappointing that the tone of debate within the public sphere draws so heavily upon dogmatic generalisations and lazy stereotypes. It is a discourse which is repetitious and lacking in nuance. Therefore I am hesitant to contribute to a debate which has arguably exhausted itself. It is perfectly conceivable that I am part of ‘the problem’ and I accept that people may reasonably judge my contribution to be partisan and lacking in nuance.
There are those who attack the independent sector for not agreeing a coherent ‘position’ with regards to the imposition of VAT but this is perhaps a little unfair given that we have never pretended to be a monolithic and indivisible entity. We are a cheerfully diverse and complex sector. Whilst some favour a robustly combative approach, others have resigned themselves to the inevitable and feel that a strategy of appeasement and relationship building is by far the most sensible option. In fairness, representative bodies such as HMC and ISC are trying their very best to open a constructive dialogue with the Labour Party whilst continuing to highlight the damaging implications of the policy itself.
Of course, Starmer claims that the Labour Party has come a long way since 2019 and it is the case that, increasingly, they look like a party ready for power. Corbyn is gone and Momentum has, well, lost its momentum. The hard left appears chastened and, thankfully, the scourge of antisemitism has been largely eradicated from the party. Starmer is a pragmatic centrist in the mould of Brown and Blair. He is statesmanlike and his wide appeal is based partly upon his ability to exude a sense of principled probity and stable leadership. After the volatility of the Johnson years and the detached and technocratic style of Sunak’s leadership, Starmer and his top team offer the hope of stability and economic growth. Though not tested in office, the likes of Wes Streeting and Rachel Reeves seem both impressive and relatable. Starmer is keen to remind us that he is quite prepared to be ruthless.
Given that Labour is likely to win a landslide victory, one might reasonably question why they feel the need to punish fee-paying parents? After all, VAT is a regressive form of taxation that will have very little impact on very rich parents and/or wealthy schools. The 2018 Baines Cutler report suggested that it is a policy that will cost the Treasury £400 million a year. By contrast, the Institute of Fiscal Studies (IFS) suggests that the removal of tax exemptions will raise between £1.3 and £1.5 billion a year. In reality, even if the policy does raise £1.5 billion pounds a year (which seems extremely unlikely), this would constitute less than 1% of current annual public expenditure on state education (which stands at £116 billion). The grandiloquent claims that the Labour Party has made for how this money is going to be spent defies credibility. It is a sum which is nowhere near enough to solve the multitude of problems for which the money has been earmarked. The Labour Party could commit more money to schools by any of a number of other means. After all, adding VAT on School fees will increase UK annual tax receipts by just 0.01%.

It is difficult to escape the conclusion that this is a totemic hypothecated tax transfer that is designed to bolster Starmer’s socialist credentials and buy political capital with those elements of the Labour Party that voted to abolish the private sector in 2019. Whilst Starmer recently insisted that he wants private schools to ‘thrive’, his beleaguered deputy, Angela Rayner, is perfectly frank in her view that private schools are engines of inequality. In her 2019 conference speech, she called for the establishment of a commission to oversee the integration of private schools into the state sector. Delegates at the same conference voted to abolish private schools and redistribute their assets to the state sector. One campaign organiser delightedly enthused that:
‘This is a really positive moment for the Labour Party because it’s the strongest commitment that the party has made to deal with the problem of private schools in a very long time. It’s a really big victory for the left’.
Of course, Starmer is sensitive to charges of hypocrisy given that he himself had the privilege of attending Reigate Grammar School, a highly selective school which became private during his time as a pupil. He tends to present as a paid up member of the metropolitan elite who is probably more at home in Islington than Ipswich. There is nothing wrong with this but he has historically struggled to resonate outside the South East.
You may notice that he talks about his parents a good deal and there is no doubt that he is at his most relatable when he reflects upon their formative influence upon his life. Indeed, he is at his most compelling when he talks about his mother’s work as a nurse in the NHS and her courageous battle against Still’s disease. Conversely, he is at his least compelling when he talks about the fact that his father worked in a factory and manufactured tools. I do not doubt that his father worked extremely hard and whether or not he owned the factory or not should be of little importance. Starmer is an enormously successful and wealthy individual who benefitted from a stable family home and an outstanding education. Few of us would begrudge him the success that he has achieved.
I do not doubt that Starmer experienced considerable hardship during his childhood and yet it is clear that he was also privileged in many respects. It always strikes me as absurdly hypocritical that politicians of all persuasions tend to spend a good deal of time polishing their own autobiographical narratives whilst viewing the lived experiences of individuals who hold positions contrary to their own as an unwelcome and irrelevant distraction from their own ideological aims.
I had an enormously privileged childhood for the simple fact that I had access to a fantastic quality of education and a secure home life. However, I spent a good deal of the first year of my life in the care of Surrey Social Services (Starmer’s home county) and I was adopted at the age of ten months. My father died when I had just turned six and so I grew up in a single-parent family. We were not poor but nor were we well off. Like Starmer, I was educated at a private school for a number of years but this was only possible because I benefited from a government-funded assisted place. In the Sixth Form, I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to attend the local state grammar school. None of my grandparents, uncles or aunts went to university and none of them had stayed at school beyond the age of sixteen. Experience of higher education was the exception within our family and certainly not the norm. My father joined the RAF upon leaving school and went to university as a mature student. Both my parents came from working-class backgrounds but we never talked about class in our family – it was just not a thing. Whilst we were always encouraged to work hard, there was never a sense in which we measured someone’s worth by their qualifications, choice of career or financial status. Such snobbery has never had a place in our family. We were always encouraged to work hard and to focus upon where people were going and not where they had come from.
Does any of this matter? I would imagine that there are other independent school heads who have had similar experiences to mine and grimace like I do when those on the Left attempt to stereotype all private schools as bastions of wealth and privilege. My background is unremarkable. Life is complex and few of us are in a position to judge the degree to which those around us are truly ‘privileged’. Those of us who support children pastorally know that it is a grotesque conceit to imagine that all children who attend private schools are privileged. It is a position that can only be adopted by those who have no interest in the lived experiences of the young people in our midst.
There is no reason why someone who started life in social care should not become the head of an independent school. Similarly, there is no reason why the son of a toolmaker should not become our next prime minister. There is much more that the independent sector can do to provide opportunities for social mobility. It is a shame that so much of the rhetoric that characterises this debate is designed to promote disharmony, social resentment and a binary interpretation of a sector which is diverse and has so much to offer.
There are many factors that impact upon our access to educational opportunities – such as geographical location, catchment areas, familial aspirations and attendant levels of cultural capital. The Labour Party’s position on VAT is somewhat obscure insomuch as education is not vatable within the EU nor is it vatable in most other countries in the world. If VAT is to be imposed on school fees then the Labour Party will have chosen to tax parental choice and tax aspiration and this has implications that go well beyond the independent sector.

Jeremy Quartermain
Headmaster of Rossall School”

Mirabai · 10/06/2024 10:39

Newbutoldfather · 10/06/2024 10:29

@Mirabai ,

I personally think they should choose to be more accessible but, as I said earlier, what happens will be driven by supply and demand and, if there is no demand for more accessible and basic schools, there will just be fewer private schools. It doesn’t matter in the least what I think.

If a school can better compete with a new state of the art virtual reality suite and offering polo as a school sport, then that is what they should do (that is a little hyperbolic but you get the point I hope). They are, fundamentally, a business.

They have been becoming more elite for years with little discussion.

They have become increasingly inaccessible and increasingly elite, and VAT simply contributes to this trend. The superich will barely register the fee increase.

There is definitely demand there for bells and whistles free private schooling. Australia for example has 36% of students in private schools but they are generally much cheaper and more accessible. There’s much less of a divide between private and state.

ageratum1 · 10/06/2024 10:44

Icepop79 · 07/06/2024 05:04

“Spoilt”?
We pulled my daughter out of her state secondary school after 2 years of being hit, spat at, pulled off her bike, having glue poured down the back of her uniform, bottles and pens thrown at her. And that’s not including the daily verbal abuse, the getting shoved out of the lunch queue, having her path blocked in corridors.

So yes, I suppose you’re right - she’s certainly less used to the conditions of her local state school now.

I do hope you will be able to get her a place elsewhere! The bullies will have a field day with the kids who have to transfer from independents.

nearlylovemyusername · 10/06/2024 10:44

This VAT will cure all UK ills - apparently VAT will not only cover 6500 new teachers, mental health support, free school meals, but also 100,000 new nursery places promised by Labour, and all funded by private schools VAT
Labour will create 100,000 new nursery places in primary schools to boost childcare (msn.com)

Just wow

MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-will-create-100-000-new-nursery-places-in-primary-schools-to-boost-childcare/ar-BB1nUFJt?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=5bd9a41a56ff4fc0bdd4a5d3e2a940ef&ei=31

Aladdinzane · 10/06/2024 10:45

@Araminta1003 Oh my god, what a load of wafflely rubbish from someone with a keen interest in not having VAT added.

Private schools are almost ALWAYS the preserve of the wealthy, the data on household income and private school pupils proves that.

MikeRafone · 10/06/2024 10:46

there are 20,778 state primary schools
there are 4,175 state secondary schools
there are 2572 independent/fee paying schools across all ages 554,000 students

if every student from fee paying schools was to leave and go to state school - thad be an extra 26 students at primary level - obviously not all would be under 11

132 students into each state secondary but again not every student will be of that age

It would be an increase of just under 6% of students

but not every single student would be leaving

You also need to take into account that approximately 15% of students in fee paying boarding schools wouldn't be educated in a state school as they are are not British nationals but from abroad and only sent to boarding school in the UK. If the parents withdraw them from private or public school they will be educated elsewhere - not UK state schools.

Scruffily · 10/06/2024 10:50

Aladdinzane · 09/06/2024 22:40

@Mirabai

Show me globally a country where even 10% of children from an ordinary background have a grade 8 by age 11.

It costs a huge amount of money, time and effort to get a child there.

Even the one you quoted is the child of a luxury hotel manager and university lecturer, so not exactly average

The university lecturer unsurprisingly had to give up her job, so a family of nine dependent on the means of one employed person is hardly going to have "a huge amount of money".

Xenia · 10/06/2024 10:51

On the point to my last post above, at the very academic schools where my children went bursaries were not to get A level grades up as they were already very high so losing them is probably no great loss. There used to be scholarships for those even very rich people who did well in the entrance exams and bursaries for the poor and then the scholarships seemed to go which was a shame. perhaps we can go back to scholarships and no bursaries.

On middle class parents not paying much tax I don't agree. Vast numbers of senior lawyers (my job) and doctors pay income tax and NI at marginal rates of at least 342%, often 47%, have no personal tax allowance etc and often have student loan 9% tax too. Whilst some super rich may not get paid in PAYE or self employed income or dividends but instead make capital against and pay CGT that is not many and remember CGT went down from 40% to CGT because indexation went -indexation was historically fair as it took account of inflation before taxing the asset. If we increase CGT back from 28% to 40% then inflation / indexation would need to come back to be fair to people.

Mirabai · 10/06/2024 10:51

Aladdinzane · 10/06/2024 10:33

@Mirabai

Totaly true and indicative of how divorced from reality on incomes you are now.

Someone spending 32k a year on fees is not "more middle class", they will be as said, in the top income decile.

It indicates how divorced you are from understanding the sector you’re spouting about.

Your claim that the "more middle class lot never sent their children there in the first place” (ie to St Paul’s and Eton) is simply false. 30 years ago, before the huge rises in fees, they were full of middle class kids.

St Paul’s was also full of assisted place students, bursaries, scholarships and teacher’s kids. Eton, due to its boarding fees and socially elite status, was always skewed more to the higher echelons of the social strata, but there were still middle class kids with help from grandparents and bursaries. Although day and boarding aren’t really comparable as the latter are inevitably far more expensive.

Scruffily · 10/06/2024 10:54

Persimonne72 · 10/06/2024 07:32

and I'll be proved right that the majority of private school parents will keep their children there anyway.

there are 554,000 pupils in private schools. Even if 20 perc only will leave it is is still more than 110,000 who will move to state school and it will pose a huge problem.And this would be a minority

The informed estimate is that around 6-7% will leave. Yes, it's still a large number, but that is spread over all year groups and all over the country, and in many areas state schools and colleges have falling rolls and will have no problems accommodating them.

Persimonne72 · 10/06/2024 10:59

Newbutoldfather · 10/06/2024 10:35

@Persimonne72 ,

‘Most of the private schools are not super selective. If most of the private schools which are not superselective fail we would have a huge problem with accommodating those kids in state schools. Perish the thought. That would be a mayhem.’

Most won’t fail but some will, and they should. Some private schools just aren’t very good.

But, if you understood how state schools work, the idea that it would be mayhem just isn’t the case. The teachers from the failing schools would generally need a job and some would move to state. And many state schools would be thrilled with more pupils, especially London primaries which are actually in danger of failing due to lack of futures! It would be manna from heaven. The main barrier for expansion of any school is facilities. Assuming these exist, the bigger a school, the better the economics are (which is why so many join MATs).

some private schools just aren’t very good.

and that is why I personally would force them to have Ofsted inspections if they are private businesses.

And many state schools would be thrilled with more pupils, especially London primaries which are actually in danger of failing due to lack of futures
Equally, there are persistently oversubscribed schools like here in Richmond borough. Not a needle to squeeze in let alone more pupils. There would need to be open state secondary school and at least two-three new primaries to accommodate kids from the failing private schools
Your notion that state schools are vastly undersubscribed is flawed- all depends on the location. Many locations are oversubscribed.

Scruffily · 10/06/2024 11:03

Why do you think Sunak organises elections 1 year before it was due? Because in May next year, they would lose more seats than today before the market depression is revealed. They know they will not win but they want as many seats as they can.

@Persimonne72, the election has to happen by 17th December, so this is only 4 months early.

Mirabai · 10/06/2024 11:06

Scruffily · 10/06/2024 10:54

The informed estimate is that around 6-7% will leave. Yes, it's still a large number, but that is spread over all year groups and all over the country, and in many areas state schools and colleges have falling rolls and will have no problems accommodating them.

There is no one informed estimate. Estimates vary from 7-25%. No-one actually knows until happens.

VivX · 10/06/2024 11:07

It isn't just Labour - this is Gove, back in 2017:

""Private school fees are VAT-exempt. That tax advantage allows the wealthiest in this country, indeed the very wealthiest in the globe, to buy a prestige service that secures their children a permanent positional edge in society at an effective 20 per cent discount."

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