It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

I don't like the policy personally. I think it will make private schools more elitist as it will be those on more modest incomes that have to leave/ won't send their kids in the future.

Surely it is better to have more people paying high income tax and then choosing not to use a public services and going private instead, then there's more money to go round for those that need it. I also think this will make it more competitive to get into good state schools and grammars and push house prices up to get in the right catchment area, which again doesn't seem like a good thing.

I know apparently the maths checks out and that the cost of the influx of kids leaving private schools is less than the VAT but I agree with you OP that I can't see that money being used/ distributed effectively in the short term which will leave the state schools worse off.

There really are not enough private pupils to push class sizes up to 40.

Before any school has to increase class sizes the empty places at undersubscribed schools will have to be filled.

So the rough school that is the bottom of your list will get the ex private kids first. If these kids have had a better education than their new peers then this is a good thing, it will improve the school's results and increase the diversity of the school.

There's lots of places in state schools - just not the ones that these parents will like.

They have no way of knowing how this is going to play out, that’s why there is no detail. It’s a huge social experiment with school children (both state and private) being used as guinea pigs and they are simply keeping their fingers crossed it all works out. It could all be fine, but it could also be a complete disaster - they have no way of knowing which way it’s going to go until it’s implemented.

Private school pupils can start tomorrow in state school. Lots of places around. I suppose these children and parents are used to better conditions at school than most common British children have.
These spoilt children won't be happy in a state school and only very few families will go this I am pretty sure.

But it will release proportionally far more teachers than children, and so state schools will benefit hugely, and might even be able to get close to fully staffed, in some instances. There really are not enough private school kids to fill up state schools. That is the whole point of private schools, isn't it, to be for a tiny "elite". financial apartheid.

Good luck next year getting a place in grammar school if you live in Kent.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/amp/the-part-of-kent-where-dozens-can-t-get-grammar-places-des-307768/

Most teachers on the many threads have stated that they would sooner retrain than teach in state schools.
Vat on private schools will do nothing to help state schools.
And it’s not intended to.
Atm the electorate want to kick the wealthy and Labour want to win so they will come up with them and us policies which can be easily implemented.

It’s just politics. The Tories have National service, labour have vat on private education.
Don’t believe any of them.

My children were educated privately but I don't understand the outrage about paying vat on what is essentially a luxury choice beyond the reach of most.

The idea has been touted for years, so shouldn't have come as a surprise and anyone choosing private education really should have factored in the possibility.

If your budget is so tight that this means you'll have to pull your children out, you couldn't ever really afford it.

None of the arguments add up. Plenty of state school places although choices might not be palatable, so state schools will not be overwhelmed. In fact, undersubscribed schools may benefit.

If average fees are £20k then VAT will raise £4k - that's what we receive per pupil in state primary schools in our area. So every private school pupil will pay for a state primary school place.

“Spoilt”?
We pulled my daughter out of her state secondary school after 2 years of being hit, spat at, pulled off her bike, having glue poured down the back of her uniform, bottles and pens thrown at her. And that’s not including the daily verbal abuse, the getting shoved out of the lunch queue, having her path blocked in corridors.

So yes, I suppose you’re right - she’s certainly less used to the conditions of her local state school now.

All of those things happen at private schools too icepop. Plenty of stories from my kids over the years and teens can be mean whether they're at private or state.

Don't worry. There won't be a huge influx.

That may be the case, (although I’ve never heard of that level of chronic, long-term bullying from anyone who has used any private school), but to suggest my child is spoilt for going to private school in those circumstances is wrong. I’m
sick of the judgment and vitriol about this issue from some people. We had my daughter on the waiting lists of various other state schools in our catchment area for 6 months before we went private. She couldn’t wait any longer.

you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way

VAT won’t impact things as above because the majority of parents are not scraping by to afford PE.

Not agreeing with private education and saying so is not vitriol.

‘That may be the case, (although I’ve never heard of that level of chronic, long-term bullying from anyone who has used any private school)’

This is a joke, right? Private schools
are INFAMOUS for bullying - I know several
children who left because of bullying.
The schools are more worried about their brand and reputation than anything which is Why YOU haven’t heard of anything -
easier to get rid of the ‘problem’ child ie the one being bullied.

Sounds like my the school my husband attended, just add sexual assault and staff bullying children. A very expensive public boarding school.

The IFS has done a report if you are interested - https://ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending

theres an executive summary so you don’t have to read the whole thing.

As someone who was relentlessly bullied for five years at my comprehensive school, I really do empathise with what your DD went through. The problem is that for those whose parents can't afford private education, the issues at the state school are never addressed and the school goes on being crap.

There were people at my school who were pulled out to private education, but my family couldn't have afforded it - I don't mean 'didn't want to make sacrifices' because there were none to make; we had no foreign holidays, second hand clothes, old banger of a car etc. Removing children from rubbish schools unfortunately just leaves the burden on those who are forced to remain, and nothing changes in the state education system.

There are loads of state school places round here. All the local (very good) schools are undersubscribed. Every time a new estate is built they build a school without even researching if it’s necessary - yet no new doctors/dentists etc.

I wonder how many more of these threads will be started before the election? This one doesn't appear to say anything new, so I am not sure why the OP couldn't have just added her points to one of the many existing threads? There are tons of threads already warning us about the potentially catastrophic impact on state schools of a mass exodus from the private sector.

The problem that private school parents will find is that most people really aren't worried about this. Few people believe that the mass exodus will actually materialise, because despite all of the earnest protestations, most private school families are not really scrimping and saving on an average salary to educate their kids privately. Most will find the money to keep their children where they are. The few that have overstretched and can't really afford private education will be absorbed by the state sector. There simply aren't enough private school children altogether to make this a matter of concern.

"sick of the judgment and vitriol about this issue from some people. We had my daughter on the waiting lists of various other state schools in our catchment area for 6 months before we went private. She couldn’t wait any longer."

I do feel sorry for your dd, who was bullied and is now in a school she likes but might have to leave. Honestly I'm not being flippant because some vitriolic posters need to remember that children are at the heart of this.

But if the vat thing comes in and you have to pull your child, you could never afford it and made a daft precarious decision.

Hopefully, vat will gradually increase over several years to make this easier for families to manage.

IFS report is good. Maybe we could just put that on every thread as soon as possible.

Yes it will raise useful cash. No it won't swamp state system.

Two areas not addressed are effect on good catchment house prices - although I live in cheap house in good catchment area so not sure I believe in it, and appalling SEN provision which is universal. I know as many private school didn't admit they weren't meeting needs, as we went private for smaller, calmer classes, stories.

This is the amount of cash it will raise - the tiny red dot, top left, in the context of all other tax receipts. It’s really not that much.

The IFS admit that their report’s weakness is that this is an area of high emotion and it’s hard to factor that into their analysis. A parent would always have been embarrassed in the past to have to pull their child out of private school, but in my child’s private school ‘because of VAT’ seems to be a reason that is seen as perfectly understandable. Our fees have been going up above inflation for quite some time now. I wonder if quite a few parents will choose to remove their children in the coming year when they have been considering doing it for years. This could give many parents the impetus to act. Or everyone just sucks it up and we all carry on like before!