It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

Somebody brought up that some people can afford luxury cars and houses. We don't put 20% stamp duty on houses over a certain value because 'people don't really need it'. Just pointing out, there are things that aren't taxed at that level (they are taxed) because we want people to invest in their home.

I don't understand why people do this. Contextual offers are really not worth the loss of really good 6th form education.

DD had a contextual offer for a science degree. During her first year she felt at a significant disadvantage to her privately and grammar educated contemporaries who had all had access to lab equipment her school could have only dreamed of.

Thanks! It's nice to see something useful on one of these threads!

Which is why we have approached a local tutor with an excellent track record, who doesn’t take on tutees unless she feels they have a good chance in passing the 11+. Tutors around here can pick and choose who they take on, it’s a very lucrative business! We are not private school parents, and won’t be now. But we are fairly confident we will get our grammar school place. It’s worth paying for tuition versus the inflated school fees.
Most parents I know are planning the same.

What's happened is we've completely lost sight of the actual purpose of education. Our society has become so competitive that all we think about is the CV at the end and the worry that somebody might be at an advantage. Education in itself isn't valued. I've had friends ask me 'Should we pay for private school? What's the point if our children are going to be disadvantaged applying for university?' I'm like, 'You're child can't even talk yet!' I sent my child private because I thought they needed the extra support to learn to read and write. I'm not even thinking of university yet! Perhaps university isn't for them.

It’s a shame this is so emotive rather than people looking at this logically.

Those sneering at private school parents having to put their children in the schools which still have places due to being undesirable are overlooking the fact the same parents will be the ones who can afford the school in the good catchment area. So the houses prices in those areas will increase and it will be those worse off who end up in the less sought out schools.

ideally, the UK should follow other countries that fund state schools properly and pay teachers properly, getting rid of the unequal playing field. But it won’t and the 20% vat levy is not going to do much in real terms to improve state schools. The inequality will continue to start from the cradle.

If you think independent school teachers are going to be queuing up for jobs in state schools you are very much mistaken. The vast majority will only apply to other independent schools in the UK or they will go abroad. Recently a lot from ds’s school seem to be enjoying a nice stint in Dubai where they pay no tax for their efforts.

You are also forgetting that this tax will affect teachers too. One of the perks is reduced fees for your own dc. An extra 20% will price them out and I very much doubt that they will be rushing to support the state that was so keen to stitch them up.

Concerns me a grown woman calling children 'spoilt' based on their parents making a choice on their behalf to attend private school. This idea that parents that send their children to a private school are hugely wealthy is a misconception. Many parents work two/three jobs, live modestly and chose to pay the fees and forgo holidays and a nice car, clothes, meals out etc.

Some parents, like you, did it to protect their children. Or try to get their SEN children more support.

People need to realise that its not all roses. A lot of sacrifice. Not all parents are business owners, professionals or come from a wealthy family. Many grandparents help pay the fees.

This hate really needs to stop.

Sorry your daughter went through this.

Private takes pressure off of state schools, to me it's maddening to charge people extra for that. It's going to price some out.

And no I can't afford to send my children into private education.

If Labour get in, everyone needs to be prepared to pay. Taxes will rise, public borrowing will increase. An absolute mess.

There is no way we'll be pulling our children out of their schools. We would rather get extra jobs.

It's a disgusting policy, which threatens to overturn many children's security; taking them from familiar environments and friendship groups quite simply because of the politics of envy.
It's made worse by the fact that Keir Starmer benefited from a private education but now wants to take that opportunity away from other people's children.
We are already paying into a system we don't use, through our taxes.
If we want good public services, we need to increase the tax base, rather than hit people with more rises.

I'll be voting Conservative and hoping for a miracle.

I mean is there anything the government won't tax? It just seems never ending

https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/admissions-marketing/what-the-greeks-can-teach-us-about-vat-on-fees/

they did it in Greece and apparently it was a disaster and they had to reverse the policy. Not sure why it would be any different here in current economic circumstances. Not before lots of people (not just teachers) lost their jobs.
Absolutely agree op. In theory agree with the policy (with a child in private and 2 more to go in a few years) but surely we need to gradually implement and plan for potential problem?!?

As you say, many threads on MN where all of this has been hashed out. Why add another?

Approximately 6-7% of the pupil population is in private schools, and of that figure around 93-97% would stay there if VAT were imposed. In the short term, the proportion is likely to be higher. They really are not going to overwhelm state schools.

See replies like this confuse me. In a 15 mile radius there are 8 primary schools near me. Every single one is over subscribed. No places for mid year entries.

Exactly. All that will happen is that the best state schools will be even more over-subscribed. The ex or would be private school parents will have money to spend on houses in expensive catchments and tutoring.

If the estimates are correct and 15% leave, it will cost the state around £500 million.

There won't be a massive exodus from private. Fees have already gone up above inflation. I don't see any PS kids leaving in droves. It's silly scaremongering.

I don’t think this is correct. They have gone up in line with inflation if you put them into a calculator!

You do know, don't you, that it's been calculated that since 2019 taxes have risen in real terms by around £13,000 per household? And that, using the methods Sunak trumpeted at the leadership debate, current Tory proposals would put another £3K on tax over three years, as opposed to their calculation of £2K for Labour? Taxes have risen more under this Conservative government than at any time since the end of WWII. So good luck voting Conservative and hoping to keep your tax bill down.

Don't peddle that nonsense about Starmer. He went to a selective state maintained grammar school which became private when he was in the 6th form, but he remained as a state pupil.

Err no - as demand for those houses (in the catchment area of the local high performing state school) increases then so will the price and then so will the supply.

If you are living in the catchment area and don't have children at the sought after school then why wouldn't you sell your house at a much higher price and buy somewhere nearby but out of the catchment area that is the same but cheaper.

The schools will absorb a lot of the cost - there have been measures like this for donkey years because this is not the first time this idea has been thought of. Some schools I know of have also said that you can just pay the school fees for however many years you have left now to avoid the VAT increase, and some parents I know are doing this.

It’s sad because it’s just going to make private schools more elitist which I thought, fundamentally is what they didn’t want - they wanted everyone to be equal. This isn’t going to do that.

State schools do have some capacity to flex because the size of cohort flexes.

Some schools are full because the building is at the limit of what can be achieved. So they are genuinley full.

Other schools are full because they set a PAN at a number where they could plan financial stability, as having half classes is disastrous for schools.

So fo example the school I work at is full. If you ring the LA, there are no spaces. It's two form entry and we filled two forms. Except if there was a significant influx of pupils we actually have capacity to be 3 form entry. And if the LA ask you to on a bulge of a half class for instance, the bridge the funding gap.

Then there are schools with capacity for modular classrooms to be added over the summer break.

It's not going to be a couple of months' notice, is it? It will take time for the relevant provision to go through Parliament, and the likelihood is that it won't come into force immediately once passed in order to allow parents to give the usual term's notice.

If you're looking at paying an extra £800 a month, you must now be paying £48K a year on education. If you have the sort of income where you have those sums available over and above living costs people are going to struggle to sympathise much with your worries.

Why do you find that hard to believe? My two DC are at prep school (current fees approx £30k per year each) but in the next few years will be at schools where the fees are approx £45k per year each. That’s £90k per year and with VAT on that that would be £1,500 per month EXTRA to find. These are absolutely huge tax hikes we’re talking about, for only a small section of society. I don’t think that’s fair. I already pay a huge amount of income tax (not to mention other taxes) - I definitely do more than my bit to fund public services already.

I am 100% all for extra funding for state schools (I’d like to see funding at least doubled, frankly) - but this is not the way to do it.

Sending my DC to private school is the main reason I work so hard and such long hours in a job I absolutely hate. I’m not sure we can afford the extra £18k per year and if I end up sending them to state school instead, I’d cut my hours right back or do something else (less well paid) entirely. How does that help anyone?

And why am I so determined to send them to private school? Because I went to an inner city state secondary school and I know just how bad they are. Not in the teaching - many of those teachers were fantastic - but in the lack of aspiration and the bad behaviour of so many pupils. That was 30 years ago and I dread to think what it’s like now.