It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

I don’t think it will work like that. There will be fewer people applying to private school and many of the smaller ones will close down. More will apply to top state schools and grammar schools and that will increase the competition for these places. Some will move for better catchment areas. A lot will go to a good state sixth form(many do this already). Parents will try to get on the wait list for good state school and leave the private school if they get a place.Private hybrid schools are cheaper so some may go for those. People will go for a tutoring/state combo. Top private schools will keep their students because parents will either be able to afford the extra or they will find it somewhere. They also have big bursary schemes which can be used as a hardship fund for existing parents. More will apply for EHCPs as they are VAT exempt and will sometimes partially, or in some cases fully, pay for private fees. The playing field is not level in the state sector and this certainly won’t change that. The percentage of children going to grammar school is about the same as private school.

And yes to bullying being as bad.

Some cases worse.

Our local independent school took a pupil who was expelled from their previous private.

They did something horrendous. They weren't expelled.

But the school got a move donation towards something they were trying to improve.

Sad but true fact and a large number of the parents wanted expulsion over the facility for their children.

People aren’t doing that but some private school parents are starting thread after thread poking the bear! So you are going to get some snippiness from those genuinely struggling. Thats why you need your own topic to discuss with like minded parents.

what it will look like and some reassurance there are places available for every child that needs one

Certainly in London there will be enough school places due to falling birth rates although granted these may not be in the school of your choice. Can you afford the increase @edwinbear? Perhaps phone some schools you like and see if there are spaces?

It will prevent those borderline children from accessing private education and in many cases they are the ones who need it the most.

Statements like this, again, show complete unawareness of those children who are in desperate need of better schooling but whose parents cannot afford it.

Private education doesn't work on the basis of being given to those who 'need it the most' - that is precisely what those who have no choice but to use state schools are resentful of.

They will be able to take all of that money that they aren’t spending on education and put it into a fabulous house in a great catchment

Im not sure I agree with this argument. Certainly in London it’s usual to live in a nice area and still pay school fees. And the areas that have great state schools are often expensive so for those who cannot afford the VAT rises I’m not sure how they will find an 300k plus for a house close to a great state.

In state primary, at least, many are closing due to lack of pupils, so they would welcome the influx. Not so sure about secondary.

But, yes, it should be phased in sympathetically. Most taxes aren’t imposed in one fell swoop. And they need to be really careful about exam years, Year 6 etc.

Schools can also use reserves to cushion the blow and spread it over several years, and allow pupils leeway based on means tests.

Genuinely..if this is about fairness..why isn't labour proposing to abolish parental preferences and allocate schools within any given LEA on a lottery basis, or even, more controversially, on SATS results, so every school gets an equal % of top middle and bottom regardless of postcode. Supported by well networked free public transport, this ensures a solid mix in every school, with the good kids rubbing off on the bad (and not vice versa) and no more opportunities for wealthier families to buy the privilege of a leafy comp. Why not do that? Oh yes, because it would negatively affect far more voters.

I accept it’s going to happen, it’s been muted by Labour for a long time,

@edwinbear I think you mean mooted not muted….

Even my shitty comprehensive school taught me that! 😉

Doesn't the UK stats show there is twice the amount of space in non private v private schools? I would assume a large per centage would never consider moving their child and financial aspect doesn't impact them.

Therefore I would assume it is only those where finances dictate a change, so probably less than an extra 25% of students currently in private school moving into state. 🤷‍♀️

I don't disagree with your suggestions, but the VAT has to be seen as 'a step in the right direction'. It would take time to overhaul the entire system.

This

Yabu unreasonable to start yet another thread using the same tired old arguments.

It's going to happen. The vast majority of those paying for private school will suck it up as contrary to what is claimed on here most are very comfortable financially. It's a luxury you choose to pay for, decide whether you want to or not and just deal with it.

So all the kids who currently go, for example, to Alton school - 450, as its a small catholic day school and therefore the kids live locally - will now simply be absorbed into the two or three primary and secondary schools in the area, at one terms’ notice? And the LEA states they have no places already as these schools are over subscribed? But f-ck ‘em, eh. They’re the kids of ‘wealthy’ people, so who gives a sh-t? Any that were in the middle of GCSEs and A Levels and cannot now find places for September [ie most of them] will just have to roll with the punches, eh?

There has been a lot of misconceptions about PE on the threads I’ve seen. Despite what many posters claim most parents aren’t struggling to afford PE and only doing so by driving a banger or camping, tutors are common in PE, many grammar dc go to private preps first, PE families often already live in areas with good states, etc.

I do agree that dc who are on bursaries may be impacted but that’s a tiny % so again not reflective of the majority.

@Willyoujustbequiet and yet again I ask, what about kids like mine who can't "just deal with it" amd whose parents put them in private out of desperation and who are in the red every month. Just because there aren't many of them doesn't mean they don't count.

The local catchment comp to me is oversubscribed and I’m at the edge of catchment so no place there. The next nearest are over 3 miles away with no pavements on parts of the route so the council will be obliged to fund transport, which will be expensive for them.

I was aiming for a private school but now we are focusing on tutoring for the 11+ for the one super selective grammar nearby.
Have seen a popular 11+ tutor for initial assessment and they are pretty confident we will get a grammar place.
Parents who were going private won’t just meekly accept a place at an underperforming school, that isn’t how it will play out in reality.

I do think a lot of people scrape by to maintain private given recent cost of living increases and definitely if you've already invested a couple of years in private ... I know people that have remortgaged to keep it going . This isn't what I want to get into though as plenty other threads on that .
Isn't it part of life that some can afford luxury houses and cars and others can't? Why does it HAVE to be any different for private schools? 7% isn't high ... if 20 or 30 % sent their kids to private it would be a much more unequal divide. This policy will of course close the gap a bit but you'll never have total equality.
Isn't this the same as private medical vs NHS? Would you want no one to afford private medical which actually helps the NHS relieve pressure on it - so we all get a shitter system?
If you think about it outside the "my children can't go so why should yours " and more about the holistic principle - do you still think it's best ?
In life you have a lot of inequality and that won't change - not sure this addresses the issue and in my area state schools are already oversubscribed and waiting lists as long as your arm without having introduced this policy ...

Yes, in the 1950s ....

@BibbleandSqwauk Personally, I would probably support admissions by a combination of fair banding and ballot and I would get rid of all state selection. Happy to hold n you on a thread about that.

The same reason that none of their other policies are costed out to the nth degree. No one knows who will get into government and all political parties promise lots before an election, then don't deliver it all.

@BigCroc its another misconception that every PE dc can obtain a grammar place. Some certainly but not all.

That argument is pure BS because it assumes that those paying £20k/£25k plus a year for fees are for some reason living in the
‘worst’ area with the ‘worst’ schools - the reality of course is that they’re living in upper end areas, in nice houses and can still afford the fees…

Well, that's quite the hyperbole isn't it? Why on earth do you think 450 parents will suddenly give notice and need state places? Why would they suddenly decide to move them in an exam year?