It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

It's also important to remember that this particular policy is an absolute gift for Tory spin doctors.

Yes it is unacceptable and awful but cuts both ways I have read vile words like “plebs” etc from private school parents and sadly I have had snarky comments in adulthood personally about state educated people as I have spent portions of my adult life in spheres were most people are privately educated and they assume I was so speak freely. Dd2 has also received unpleasantness recently from public school boys even now.

The sooner these threads are in their own topic the better.

Not making a single dent in the polls. 6% v 94%.

I work in the independent sector. This will not result in this huge influx of children to state schools. Most private schools will absorb a good portion of the cost. The full cost will not be passed on in nearly all cases, and schools will also be able to reclaim VAT on supplier goods and services once they start charging it and therefore reduce pre VAT fees before applying it. Fees will increase but not by 20%. Good schools will have planned for this for years. There will be an effect, there will be some children leave and some children not join as a result. Ultimately, though, we are a business and should be treated as one.

I think it's more that most of us are just incredulous that private school parents hadn't already factored this into their planning, given that the idea has been on the table for quite a long time.

If these threads are anything to go by, it would seem that a lot of parents have overstretched themselves on fees that they can't really afford without doing any sort of adequate risk assessment. I will admit to being surprised by that, as most of the private school families that I know in RL have been planning around this possibility for years.

So, either it's a different demographic on MN, with a lot of parents having made ill-considered decisions. Or it's a lot of people saying that they won't be able to afford the increase because they don't want to pay it, but not actually meaning it because they will somehow find the money to keep their kids where they are.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

@Pollipops1 yes. I have 2 DC’s at a London day school where fees are £25k a year. We’ve also seen our mortgage and bills go up, like everyone else, fees are going up 8% next year and then VAT on top. It’s a worry and what parents and schools need right now is some guidance as to when this is going to happen, what it will look like and some reassurance there are places available for every child that needs one. I accept it’s going to happen, it’s been muted by Labour for a long time, but the lack of clarity over the implementation is causing huge amounts of worry to a lot of people. And a lot of people seem to be enjoying the stress and anxiety it’s causing to parents and children. That’s what I object to - the sneering and faux ‘what’s the big deal’ attitude.

@Humphhhh "Not making a single dent in the polls. 6% v 94%."
Sorry? I don't get that....?

But the 6% are awful terrible people for not caring enough about the 94% to send our kids to the schools that terrorised them in some altruistic act to help improve them? My DD is flourishing now, loving learning and getting great marks. Do you think if I sent her back to the state school she'd continue to get all her work done in more than necessary detail, put her hand up and say "I know this extra thing about x" and that this would result in a wide eyed "wow" from the others and pats on the back and them following her shining example? Or would it result in her being mocked, attacked and terrorised? Why does everyone think this tiny sub set of kids would have such a turn-around effect on state that we should do that?

And I'd pretty insulted if I was part of the 96% actually...plenty of whom are superstars in nice schools ..should they all get bussed across town to improve the crap ones? If this is about levelling the playing field, surely that would be the more effective and widespread policy. Stop the postcode bidding for good schools and catch 96% of parents up in this "levelling up".

I wish I saw half as many threads raging about the number of children living in poverty in this country (29% of all children) versus the children who attend private school (around 7% at most).

Private school is a luxury, you are privileged if you access one, and if you can’t afford a rise in fees (likely to be far less than 20% anyway unless your school likes exploiting you) then you can’t afford it anyway and you should have made better choices.

I'm not trying to be unkind, but you must realise that stating you have £50k a year to spend on private school fees, but this situation is a 'worry' is not going to inspire much sympathy from people whose entire household income is far below £50k even before tax. This is the kind of thing I meant when I spoke of private school parents being oblivious to the masses.

@whovotestory

"When are you lot going to understand that the very act of sending your child to a private school means you are rich and your children are spoilt, and the rest of us couldn't give a shiny shit how upset this proposed policy makes you. "

Alternatively...

"When are lot going to understand that because the politics of envy, the rest of us resent the fact that you can afford to have something we can't.

Hypocritically we would however be up in arms if there was VAT proposed on private healthcare insurance because many of us receive this through our jobs. We recognise this allows us to avoid to avoid queuing for NHS like the majority have to but we don't give a shiny shit about this.

Under the politics of envy we don't like anyone "rich" who should be taxed more to pay for more stuff. We define as "rich" anyone earning 25% more than our own income do most definitely not each of us earn.

Lastly we justify our views with prejudiced stereotypes that private school kids are all spoilt, arrogant, top hat wearing Eton types.

Funding is per pupil for schools so the budgets won't be worse in state schools they will be better. If private schools close the teachers will need jobs so more teachers will be around to apply. I think housing will be an issue as parents look for houses in good catchments.

I do know there have been issues in Cambridge with places u like a lot of other areas but assume extras will have to go to St Neots etc. like the kids who never went to private school.

@Humphhhh "@Humphhhh "Not making a single dent in the polls. 6% v 94%."
Sorry? I don't get that."

Oh, sorry, i was being thick. I get it. In terms of voting intention, this will make a dent. It's not just private school parents-this is an important issue for many traditional Tory voters.

These parents you refer to are most parents actually... the state schools that have places usually (not always) have places for a reason... why would you want to send your child to an under performing school ??? I'm not talking about circumstances by the way, I'm talking if we had a choice why would any parent want to send their child to a school that lacks.. so don't judge.

I agree with you entirely. I don’t object to labour’s policy. I understand why they’re doing it. I wish they weren’t bringing it in on a personal level but I will still vote for them. I don’t support the inequality in this country (even though I recognise I currently contribute to it continuing by sending my daughter to private school)

I also don’t disagree that some people don’t understand how fortunate and privileged they are to use private schools. My dad was a state school teacher his whole life. My partner and I both went to state schools. It genuinely wasn’t on our radar to do anything other than send our kids to state schools. And I do recognise that we are in a very privileged position.

My only worry about the policy is that it will have zero impact on the very elite public schools and their parents. It’s the smaller, cheaper schools that might feel the squeeze more.

I’m not referring to parents who send their children. I was privately educated and very grateful to it. My parents at that time were not wealthy my grandparents pay for it.

Im referring to the posters who are running their hands in glee at the thought of sticking it to people lucky enough to be able to send their children to private school.

Also no need to call me thick, I’m not thick thanks to my lovely private education.

Another thread with absolutely nothing new to say! Really?

@MumChp why are children who are enrolled in private school spoilt?

I’m all for debate on these matters, but it’s unnecessary to make negative sweeping statements as to the character of the children and their parents in the private school sector.

my two Penny FWIW, when I put my postcode into my local council to look at catchment, I don’t even fall into the area for my local comprehensive school which is a mile away - the mind boggles!!

There are far more empty state school places available than there are pupils in private school.

If people decide they no longer wish to pay for an independent education they are quite welcome to do what everyone else does and apply for a state place and be allocated the nearest state place available and apply for transport if it's not within 3 miles of home.

If people think they are entitled to buy something without VAT they are more than welcome to use the free provided services. Maybe if they understood the state education system better they'd spend as much time fighting for that to be of standard as they've spent on MN complaining about paying VAT on what they've bought like the rest of us.

Feasible if 2 kids at private school at around £20k fees

Oh I know what fees cost, but I would have thought if you are paying 40k plus a year then you would have a buffer particularly as fees go up every year.

I agree that there won’t be an influx. I think parents will do their best to keep their kids in schools where they are happy, even if it’s more of a struggle. But I’d be very interested to see what happens in the future. Parents will be making decisions based on significantly higher fees upfront so it’s likely that many of those parents will choose a state school instead. But it won’t be a struggling state school. They will be able to take all of that money that they aren’t spending on education and put it into a fabulous house in a great catchment. I actually have no issue with this - it’s what my dm did for us as a child and we had a good state education. But it doesn’t make anything fair or equal.

This policy does trigger me far more than it should even though we will personally not be affected. I’ve thought about why and it’s because 10 years ago we couldn’t have afforded that extra 20% but we wouldn’t have moved the kids so we’d have had to get in debt to make it work. We planned for an annual future increase of 10% but VAT plus that would have screwed us. It’s not an issue for us now so it really shouldn’t bother me this much - ds is leaving this year and dd is paid up till the end so no VAT. But I feel for all the parents who will be having to make these choices about their dc’s future, not because it’s a good policy and will generate more income, but because people want to kick ‘the rich’ who are already reducing the burden on the state by making this choice. It will prevent those borderline children from accessing private education and in many cases they are the ones who need it the most.

You should be assuming it will affect September. Any delay to that will save you money.

@edwinbear what has your school said about the increases?