Page 5 | To feel uncomfortable in working class pubs as a woman of colour?

Dreamsaregood · 2024-06-05T21:23:41+00:00

Just that really. I walked in and immediately got heckled by a (presumably) drunk man. Why did this man think this is ok? I felt really uncomfortable after that and he continued to stare at me every time I walked past. It ruined my evening, and to be honest I felt a little threatened being the only woman of colour in my group. AIBU to think very carefully before agreeing to meet up in certain places (local pubs etc)?

Mirabai · 06/06/2024 11:19

Sorry to hear that OP, it’s horrible.

Fairyliz · 06/06/2024 11:26

Dreamsaregood · 06/06/2024 10:14

My friends go to these sorts of places all the time, whereas I very rarely go. They had been before, and no issues. Like I said, they just have no idea what it is like for someone like me. We usually meet up in places where this doesn't happen such as a restaurant or at each others homes.

These people are your friends, have you ever tried talking/explaining to them how you feel?
There seems to be a view that it is up to white people to educate themselves about racism, but how do they do that if their black friends that they care about don’t speak about it?
Im not sure I would be able to just launch a conversation with a black friend about their experiences of racism, wouldn’t that just make you feel awkward and different?

Original poster

Dreamsaregood · 06/06/2024 11:28

Errors · 06/06/2024 11:11

What you experienced is unfair OP, racist and probably misogynistic to boot.

However, there is also a lot of classist rhetoric on this post. How is that any different? Are all WC people racist? Are all WC people who drink in WC pubs racist?

There are arseholes from all walks of life. I don’t think pigeonholing it is particularly helpful

Of course there are racists everywhere.

But these pubs are not safe for WOC.

I felt a huge sense of relief when I got back into my car, I put the locks on asap and drove home in shock and angry that I ever step foot in that place. And angry at my friend for being so god damn oblivious to how this choice of venue put me in potential danger.

Sometimes I think we are all just living in our little bubbles (working class, middle class, racist, non-racist) side by side never really understanding or appreciating how life affects anyone but ourselves.

OP posts:

OrlandointheWilderness · 06/06/2024 11:32

May I ask what your friend said when you explained the situation?

Original poster

Dreamsaregood · 06/06/2024 11:42

My friends do not notice, as I said before it does not affect them so why would they go out of their way to look out for me as a WOC.

We talk about all sorts of things and we all have shared history and are invested in each other's lives but these women are working class themselves with mums/dads who have gone in to these pubs for generations. "They" feel comfortable there.

Please tell me how you would go about this conversation? I have said I don't like going to these places plenty of times but it just doesn't register how uncomfortable this might be for me, they have never walked in my shoes, they don't get it and they never will.

OP posts:

KatherineParr · 06/06/2024 11:54

This happened to me once. I was with a white male friend who openly admitted he didn't get it but was happy enough to move on given I didn't feel comfortable. It was just the two of us so can't say how the dynamic might have changed if we were in a group. I'm not sure you can definitely safeguard against this though - this happened to me in a central London pub where I'd been multiple times before and nothing had ever happened. I got the impression from things that were said that the group had come into London for the day. On the other side I've been to plenty of rural pubs in non-diverse areas where you might expect to feel more at risk and nothing has ever been said to me. No advice, just to say it's not just you.

OrlandointheWilderness · 06/06/2024 11:58

Its a tricky one @Dreamsaregood - but I think important. I would be horrified if a friend of mine felt they couldn't raise something like this with me. Maybe when you are all next together you could have a bash? Try something like 'you know that pub we all met in on XXX... well I didn't feel very welcome there, could we have a chat about it?' and go from there.
You could try 'fuck they were a racist bunch of bastards in that rough pub the other night weren't they!' 😂
I would be very surprised if you got any other reaction than horror they A)didn't notice and B) didn't think. That's the sad thing about humanity - we are so caught up in ourselves we don't sometimes think about others. If they are close friends as well they genuinely may not think of it as it isn't the defining feature of your relationship. You may be 'X, who is kind', or 'X, who is funny', or 'X, who is a bloody liability after tequila'. Not 'X, who is black and kind' or 'X, who is black and funny' if you see what I mean. Which is not good enough and needs addressing so they DO recognise it is a massive influence in how you are treated.
They won't ever be able to walk in your shoes, however education will help and empathy is a quality it never hurts to develop.

Edited because of bloody spelling mistakes due to fat fingers!!

Bentoforthehorde · 06/06/2024 12:23

I went into a bakery recently following a friend but not obviously together, a few people were between us as I had been paying in another shop (she is a WOC with good English but an accent) and the vibe in the room was so different to everywhere we walked in together. I felt like I had walked in on a glimpse of what she must experience often.
I don't really know how to explain it except 'othering'. There was nothing overtly wrong but it felt very strange, unfriendly and uncomfortable somehow. It was enough that I commented about it to my mother when we visited her house afterwards.
I'm in Yorkshire, the general vibe is very open and friendly, that's why it was so noticeable to me I think.

I'm sorry you were put in that position OP, as a working class person myself I hope find some welcoming spaces but pubs often do have unchecked threatening behaviour. I'm not saying it's right, but it needs men to stand up and call it out which they don't seem to want to do.

HooverTheRoof · 06/06/2024 12:23

I've never felt unsafe as a woman in a pub, and I used to drink in them weekly. I have however come across some proper racists in them. I had quite a big a row with one once when I called him out on it...to be honest I'd just be blunt with your friends. Tell them how you feel, they'll most likely be horrified they didn't pick up on it

Edit just to say I'm white, so I can't imagine how bad it is if you arent

PurpleBugz · 06/06/2024 12:32

I'm so disappointed in this country. We should be doing better by now. I'm white and would feel uncomfortable in such a pub, its bad enough being a woman without racism ontop. Sorry this happened op

ilovesooty · 06/06/2024 12:46

Dartwarbler · 06/06/2024 11:06

As a woman I have NEVER felt comfortable going into a pub alone.

maybe it’s a generation thing as I’m 60 and in my childhood and teens women going into pubs alone were seen as “fast and loose”. My own grandmother was a bar maid in 1920s and married the publican…she was ostracised for that for life as being of low morals

Th common factor is around alcohol. The more the place is associated with drinking alcohol vs say tea/coffee the more cultural stigma applies to women frequenting it

woman in pubs as a group or twosomes don’t get much attention these days, unless they’re young and blokes think they’re sexually available, but a lone woman of any age will still stand out and raise questions as to why she’s there alone and not at “home”, or with someone else - from both men and women

I avoid it now as I don’t want people looking at me and wondering what sort of person I am who has no friends or partner …I used to avoid it to avoid lechy men thinking I was there to provide their emotional support or entertainment

it’s a bloody shame. I live on my own and sometimes fancy a meal out , I tend to go to places at lunch , as sitting on my own in a pub in the evening is just too uncomfortable and even at lunchtime I’ve not tried it . I stick to cafes, garden centres, museums etc where sitting on your own as a woman has always been perfectly normal ..because these places are not associated with alcohol.

I’d also add that I travelled abroad for work a lot all over the world. I’ve avoided it mostly then as well with exceptions in a very few cities. Even in the hotel restaurant I’m staying at, waiting staff would quite often ignore me and be less than courteous if they were busy. I was just an “old grey invisible woman”…ironic really as I also had a healthy company allowance and corporate credit card 🤷🏼‍♀️. So I don’t think it’s just uk, it’s a cultural thing in many countries.

yep, I know there’s lots of people who wouldn’t bat an eyelid, but anyone of my age will certainly be curious at the very least .

and yes I know there’s a lot of women who don’t give a shit at being on their own…good for them and I’m in admiration of their confidence.

so not colour, though I don’t suppose that makes it any easier, it’s just a long history and cultural changes to normalise women in pubs/bars or anywhere serving alcohol, are still not there yet

don’t get why pubs haven’t cottoned into this - they’re certainly not encouraging my custom

I'm older than you. It's not a generational thing. I've never had a problem with going to pubs or restaurants alone.
The OP has repeatedly said it's not for her a woman thing.

Bululu · 06/06/2024 13:05

YANBU to think to meet in much trouble free and civilised places. I really do not think those pubs would disappear any time soon. I am also much better than those places full of drunks who love to start a fight anyway so I would not spend a penny there.

Naran · 06/06/2024 13:09

It sounds like you encountered an arsehole in a shithole.

If someone is prepared to behave like that towards you in public, there is really no hope/education for him. He's a moron to be avoided.

I would definitely go somewhere better.

Trinity65 · 06/06/2024 13:12

BringMeSunshineAllDayLong · 05/06/2024 22:51

I used to live in a predominantly white town for about 5 years. In the last year I moved into a house of predominantly black men. I remember the first time walking into my local with a couple of them and not being able to work out the weird atmosphere until it happened every fucking time we went anywhere. This was the 90s and one would hope things have changed but sadly we know they haven't.
And stop with all the "as a woman" minimising bollocks.

I hear You

White, working class female here.
On the 5th Anniversary of my Nan's death, my wonderful, kind, lovely friend (a black Man) took Me to a local pub for a drink and some lunch.
He looked lovely in a suit and went to the bar and came back where we had our drink and lunch.
It was not until we got outside though that he told Me some prat at the bar (white bloke, mid 20s perhaps) had said to his mate "He must be a pimp and she his Whore!!"
Disgusting little Pig... I was ready to go back in but I didn't as HE was not worth aggro .

Trinity65 · 06/06/2024 13:13

Oh, and sadly, this was not the 90s but 2014

Trinity65 · 06/06/2024 13:13

PS OP

YANBU

AnnaMagnani · 06/06/2024 13:15

In the sort of pub you are describing I'd expect a regular would make anyone uncomfortable who was:

a man or woman they didn't know
a man or woman of the wrong class: either with a different accent or wearing clothing that marks them as different
a man or woman of colour

And all of the above would be worse for a woman

As you were meeting old school friends they likely weren't in any of those categories but you were in all them.

Your friends are probably oblivious to how life is different for you.

BadSkiingMum · 06/06/2024 13:22

I am white and closely connected to an elderly Asian person.

I have witnessed micro-aggression from service providers firsthand, because prejudice means that they also don’t think that the elderly Asian person is with light-haired, blue-eyed me. So they don’t think they have a witness.

Although I would far rather it didn’t happen, I do quite enjoy calling it out in those moments!

Getonwitit · 06/06/2024 13:25

QuacketyQuack · 05/06/2024 22:45

Are you all attempting to dismiss how this Man made her feel? I don't think any of you realise how hard it can be as a person of colour in a predominantly white area/place.
How rude!
OP, yes it most likely could have been because if your colour. Unfortunately it probably was. It must have been difficult for you , and yes sometimes you may have to think about where you socialise in future

Nobody is dismissing how this made this lady feel but neither you, or i can say it was because she was a woman or because of her colour. She has already said race wasn't mention but here you are determined to make it all about race, why? It may be because she is both or nothing to do with either.

WhenTheMoonShines · 06/06/2024 13:28

Management should be chucking scrotes like that out, working class pub or not.

I really hope you don’t write off all of us working class people as racist though, but I do understand the temptation to. I’m sorry that you experienced that sort of behaviour

Ihopeithinkiknow · 06/06/2024 13:29

SnazzyShambles · 06/06/2024 08:55

As a WOC it’s encouraging that the majority of posters are offering support

I'm a white woman and reading your post made me a bit emotional tbh the fact that you have pointed out that it's encouraging really does say something doesn't it? It should be standard human behaviour as we are all human beings and I have this thought that humans would be better off without eyes lol i know it sounds stupid but I think it's an interesting thought lol not very practical I know and I'm not suggesting we all gouge our eyes out haha but I think humans would get along better if we took them away. I'm not explaining myself well here and I'm prepared to be piled on but it's just a thought I had lol

Original poster

Dreamsaregood · 06/06/2024 13:31

It was 100% about race. This man did not like a woman of colour entering this pub and so he heckled me and went out of his way to look me up and down every time I walked past.

He did not have to racially insult me for me to know what was happening. As I said my group were white and also not known to this male and they were not stared at heckled or looked up and down in the way that I was.

Gosh it's like hitting your head against a brick wall trying to get through to some people. This is exactly why it is probably pointless trying to raise this issue.

If you are oblivious to prejudice and microaggressions, as my friends are, you will continue to remain oblivious as the status quo suits you/ the majority so why change it to make life better for "others"

it is othering which people do all the time, consciously or unconsciously.

OP posts:

Mirabai · 06/06/2024 13:33

Gosh it's like hitting your head against a brick wall trying to get through to some people. This is exactly why it is probably pointless trying to raise this issue.

It’s almost as if some MNers have no clue about race but like to make pronouncements on it all the same.

ilovesooty · 06/06/2024 13:37

Dreamsaregood · 06/06/2024 13:31

It was 100% about race. This man did not like a woman of colour entering this pub and so he heckled me and went out of his way to look me up and down every time I walked past.

He did not have to racially insult me for me to know what was happening. As I said my group were white and also not known to this male and they were not stared at heckled or looked up and down in the way that I was.

Gosh it's like hitting your head against a brick wall trying to get through to some people. This is exactly why it is probably pointless trying to raise this issue.

If you are oblivious to prejudice and microaggressions, as my friends are, you will continue to remain oblivious as the status quo suits you/ the majority so why change it to make life better for "others"

it is othering which people do all the time, consciously or unconsciously.

Some people just aren't listening. They're just falling over themselves in their eagerness to make it a sex issue. You were there. You know how it felt and how you perceived it. If people can't respect that and listen to what you're saying they should stop commenting.

Iaskedyouthrice · 06/06/2024 13:38

I've said it before on here and I'll say it again, the racism on this site takes my breath away sometimes. I'm another poster surprised with how much support you have had on this thread because I've seen some awful stuff written on here before. From the very same 'liberal' and left leaning posters that go on about being kind. They are Liberal and left leaning until it comes to racism. Then it's gloves off, pure hate. They just hide it behind faux innocence and dismissal.