To feel uncomfortable in working class pubs as a woman of colour?

[Dreamsaregood]

Just that really. I walked in and immediately got heckled by a (presumably) drunk man. Why did this man think this is ok?

I felt really uncomfortable after that and he continued to stare at me every time I walked past. It ruined my evening, and to be honest I felt a little threatened being the only woman of colour in my group.

AIBU to think very carefully before agreeing to meet up in certain places (local pubs etc)?

I'm so so sorry this happened to you. What a vile little man.

YANBU OP. I think there is an underlying discomfort in having some obvious difference vs everyone else and them noticing and making it obvious they have.
As white women in a predominantly white county we are unlikely to experience that often (if at all).

The closest I’ve come to the feeling you describe was when visiting a mall in a predominantly black neighbourhood in Virginia with a uni friend. I felt very much unwelcome. I didn’t see a single other white person the whole time we were there. Lots of small groups of men watched us as we walked past and glared and a couple of groups shouted something.

It’s horrible to feel that way and it’s
really intimidating. I’m so sorry it’s a common experience for people in the U.K. It’s awful there are lots of places WOC feel uncomfortable, intimidated or unsafe and it shouldn’t be like that. Since it is though you are absolutely not unreasonable to stay away from that/similar pubs and suggest a meet up somewhere you do feel welcome.

You said your friends felt comfortable and not you.. was this your first time in pubs like this or you don't go to them regularly? I don't think it's a race thing I think it's a woman thing

Yes this a good way to describe it. I felt so very uncomfortable walking past him, and he was looking at me (up and down) every time I walked past.

I feel annoyed I put myself in that situation, I came home and am still upset about it today. I grew up deprived and poor, but worked hard and I think you can fool yourself with an education, good middle class job, house, a car to drive so no suffer abuse on the streets, then this sort of thing brings you back down to earth with a bump. You are just the colour of your skin
to a lot of people in this country. That is what it boils down to.

What makes you think that? Do you have some insight that op (and her lived experience of being a WOC, and also being the person actually in the pub) doesn't have?

Your local working class pub looks a bit like our nice ones (at least from outside). I was expecting something like this

I believe you op. I went to my local a few weeks back. While I was on my own as dh was getting drinks at the bar a group of men started loudly talking about the 'great' Enoch Powell and how they wished he was still here to sort things out and how amazing his Rivers of Blood speech was. They knew I could hear them. One of chaps used to be on a governing body with me for years so also knows me from that setting. He was the one who started the conversation. I just got up and walked off. They knew what they were doing.

I hope you're okay op. It's deeply unsettling when you realise people still harbour these views and there's not a sausage you can do to change it. Hopefully you'll have no need to go back.

I'm a white female.
I don't feel safe in a trad 'working class' pub either. However, I cannot properly image how much more unsafe it would feel if I was also a woman of colour. I am very sorry you've had that experience OP.

Are you black? If not, how would you 100% know what it's like to enter a pub with no other black people in it, to come to that conclusion?

I find it fascinating that people are invalidating OP but probably not qualified to come to such a conclusion, due to their lack of experience.

If you are a person of colour then maybe I'll take it back.

Cya. I'm off to find a thread by wheelchair users and disabled people. I'm going to tell them they are imagining discrimination and to shut up.

I feel annoyed I put myself in that situation, I came home and am still upset about it today.

It makes me so angry and upset and ashamed to hear people blaming themselves for this. You absolutely should not be blaming yourself for someone else’s bigotry.

I don’t want to minimise this as I am very aware that I have not experienced this. But I do think you have to direct that anger outwards and not at yourself. I completely understand your desire not to put yourself through this situation again but please for the love of God don’t internalise this sort of thing. Things will never improve if this isn’t called out for being backwards.

It’s not you, it’s them.

Sad to see so much dismissal of racism.
My DH had a similar experience venturing to our local (in a very diverse area) with another foreign friend. Both vowed never to return. I can imagine it would be worse for a woman.
In my experience, as a white woman watching how the world treats DH and our DC, things are moving backwards. Dismissing your reality is a huge part of the problem.

Sorry this happened to you OP and I can absolutely believe the atmosphere/looks were racially motivated.

I'm a white woman and have gone into pubs before and felt that out of place feeling as a woman. However what you have experienced is a whole different kettle of fish on top and it's shit this is still happening.

I remember my brother (of indian origin) once going to a pub to meet his (white) girlfriend. The people there were pretty horrible to him and he just left. I remember that at that time i was furious with him for just leaving rather than giving back somehow but now i totally understand how uncomfortable and maybe even scared he would have been.He's experienced varying levels of racism before but surprisingly that experience did shake him quite a bit. It must have been pretty intimidating to be surrounded by a group of openly hostile, white, drunk guys.

Another pub experience. Had gone with a group of friends. One friend had a white British girlfriend and somebody in the pub lay into her trying to convince her to dump him and thst she could do better. She was very, very upset!! They are married now and she often tells me about the unpleasant experiences she has when they are out and about. Sometimes it's just hostile glares and sometimes people comment. Apparently, the worst was in stoke on trent...not surprisingly...

Anyway not exactly relevant to your post op but I do get that some pubs in particular aren't very friendly to poc. Sometimes I almost feel safer when I'm with a group thst includes white people as purely Asian groups (even if it's just a small group of 3 or 4 people) seem to be really rub people up the wrong way.

My friends go to these sorts of places all the time, whereas I very rarely go. They had been before, and no issues. Like I said, they just have no idea what it is like for someone like me. We usually meet up in places where this doesn't happen such as a restaurant or at each others homes.

I 100% agree with this. It is a really unsettling feeling.

To be fair to you OP, me and friends who are WOC never go into working class pubs as they’re not our type of place to go.

When I’ve been with them to the countryside or seaside to pubs or venues I personally haven’t noticed any looks or comments and if there were any we’d leave but that’s not to say it’s never happened but I haven’t noticed.

I do 100% get what you’re saying though, if I was white and walked into the pub you went into I wouldn’t get looks or be made to feel uncomfortable.

It’s interesting though as there are 2 pubs local to me, one’s recently closed down but it’s next door to a Wetherspoons. The other pub was a trendy pub. My friend who’s black has 3 older brothers and they sometimes met up there as it’s local for them and a good meeting place. My friend said walking past the Spoons pub to get to this one you’d get looks sometimes if she was by herself but because she’s with 3 black men they didn’t bother with looks because the Spoons regulars would know there could be consequences (her brothers aren’t ones for fighting though).

Yes but your friends are white, have white privilege and also in other places like restaurants you generally don’t experience direct or indirect racism.

Yes this is what I mean, it is like entering another world when you step foot in one of these pubs! Suddenly I feel like I have entered a lions den.

I remember being in a family meals type pub with our son's Asian GF, we were talking about race/culture etc. She said 'I don't know if you've noticed but I'm the only brown girl in this entire place' It really did make me think how I would feel being the only white woman in a pub or anywhere else for that matter.

The place we went was not somewhere I would ever have chosen to go with my DH or DC.

I went as I wanted to catch up with them as we have been friends for decades but the decision on where to go on this occasion was made by a woman that has no idea of the consequences for a WOC. Or perhaps they are choosing to ignore the consequences for me, like I said nothing racist was said through luck more than anything else I think.

As a woman I have NEVER felt comfortable going into a pub alone.

maybe it’s a generation thing as I’m 60 and in my childhood and teens women going into pubs alone were seen as “fast and loose”. My own grandmother was a bar maid in 1920s and married the publican…she was ostracised for that for life as being of low morals

Th common factor is around alcohol. The more the place is associated with drinking alcohol vs say tea/coffee the more cultural stigma applies to women frequenting it

woman in pubs as a group or twosomes don’t get much attention these days, unless they’re young and blokes think they’re sexually available, but a lone woman of any age will still stand out and raise questions as to why she’s there alone and not at “home”, or with someone else - from both men and women

I avoid it now as I don’t want people looking at me and wondering what sort of person I am who has no friends or partner …I used to avoid it to avoid lechy men thinking I was there to provide their emotional support or entertainment

it’s a bloody shame. I live on my own and sometimes fancy a meal out , I tend to go to places at lunch , as sitting on my own in a pub in the evening is just too uncomfortable and even at lunchtime I’ve not tried it . I stick to cafes, garden centres, museums etc where sitting on your own as a woman has always been perfectly normal ..because these places are not associated with alcohol.

I’d also add that I travelled abroad for work a lot all over the world. I’ve avoided it mostly then as well with exceptions in a very few cities. Even in the hotel restaurant I’m staying at, waiting staff would quite often ignore me and be less than courteous if they were busy. I was just an “old grey invisible woman”…ironic really as I also had a healthy company allowance and corporate credit card 🤷🏼‍♀️. So I don’t think it’s just uk, it’s a cultural thing in many countries.

yep, I know there’s lots of people who wouldn’t bat an eyelid, but anyone of my age will certainly be curious at the very least .

and yes I know there’s a lot of women who don’t give a shit at being on their own…good for them and I’m in admiration of their confidence.

so not colour, though I don’t suppose that makes it any easier, it’s just a long history and cultural changes to normalise women in pubs/bars or anywhere serving alcohol, are still not there yet

don’t get why pubs haven’t cottoned into this - they’re certainly not encouraging my custom

What you experienced is unfair OP, racist and probably misogynistic to boot.

However, there is also a lot of classist rhetoric on this post. How is that any different? Are all WC people racist? Are all WC people who drink in WC pubs racist?

There are arseholes from all walks of life. I don’t think pigeonholing it is particularly helpful

Thinking about it more - I work at a food factory conducting occupational health tests. We have an incredibly diverse workforce (it's fab, I meet so many interesting people from so many interesting places!) where I would estimate only around 25% are white British. Of those, the majority are older - 45s/50s. There is clearly racism and definitely judgement. Little comments (at least I can understand you! sort of thing), little insinuations about the foreigners. I ALWAYS address it and cut it off - in my office everyone is here for the same thing and the only difference is someone who has come from abroad may struggle a little more with language, but we get by together! Generally the standard of English is excellent and about 25% of the PoC who work here are English anyway! But it is shocking to see it and I hope and pray it fucks off.

I always feel uncomfortable in working class pubs with drunkards too.
So I hardly ever frequent them. I am white.
I have been leered at by black and white.

Drunk is the operative term.
And woman the other..

Not all men are drunkards.
Not all drunkards are white
Not all drunkards are racist.
Not all drunkards are misogynistic.

The working class pubs, I find, attract more drunks.
Or maybe the drunks in upper class pubs have better manners.

This.