Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

The idea that this policy will affect the super rich is ridiculous. It will hurt the people who are barely affording to send their children, or those with bursaries or discounts. Similarly, those with SEN children who have no other options but to send their children to private school (the category we fall into). We are not super rich, but afford it with a combination of sacrifice, scholarships and bursaries.

I am also a teacher and Keir Starmer’s suggestion in the debate last night that he is going to use the money from private school taxation to fund more teachers in core subjects, thus ‘fixing’ education is laughable. Teachers don’t want to be there due to workload, box ticking exercises, entitled children, unsupportive parents, lack of effective discipline, lack of SEN support and funding… and that’s just the tip of the iceberg!

Since when did celebrating ‘financial success’ become a desired Value for a country? We have enough money to send our DC to private school if you are referring to sacrifices of a house in a interesting area, holidays definitely but we wouldn’t contemplate it as it’s an uncomfortable advantage to us.

Who said " I'm gleeful thinking that children at private schools will have to move schools because their parents can't afford the fees"?

For what it's worth, we keep being told that competition makes for better-run services because the public sector is full of waste and inefficiency.

Why can't these private schools channel their improved efficiencies and manage their margins better so their pricing remains competitive even after VAT?

People who resent the unfairness - I can see their point of view. People who come on here to tell us how they could have afforded private school, but their fabulous children did fabulously at State school and now they want to make it unaffordable for other people - what is wrong with you? I wouldn't want you as a parent at any school I sent my child to - State or Private. You're that nightmare smug parent everybody avoids!

Not true. As I said, I privately educated and 100% understand the resentment towards it. It has nothing to do with the cost of living. It is the fact that by a fluke of birth some children have a better advantage in life than others. Some humility is needed by many private school parents and an acceptance that they should expect to pay VAT for a luxury purchase they choose to make.

I was kind of with you until you said…

‘most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do’.

Now, Im middle class, I can afford private school, but have chosen not too. It would require moving to a smaller home, not as desirable an area, fewer extra curricular, less contingency if something goes wrong… like a new government adding VAT for example. On balance we felt the sacrifices needed would disadvantage our DC more than an outstanding state!

BUT we absolutely recognise this is a choice and I have never hated on anyone for making their own choice. The hate doesn’t come from middle class families who can afford it but choose not too. I believe the hate comes from those who are genuinely at the mercy of the state education system and cannot move or pay for that advantage like higher earners can. It’s not a choice for them and their children may therefor be disadvantaged and less able to access the same opportunities.

I don’t blame those that choose private, they want a better education and a more prosperous Life for their children. But just because it’s understandable it doesn’t make it moral, or any more palatable for those that don’t have that choice.

Unfortunately the state education system is broken. It’s failing far too many children and the focus should be on pushing for reform. But please understand and where the ‘hate’ is coming from.

Here's a question I have never seen adequately answered on these threads.

Why do private schools insist on absurdly expensive uniforms - running into 4 figures at some schools - that make kids stand out a mile?

Maybe if they were abolished and the kids could wear Asda joggers the parents could pay the VAT.

It is the fact that by a fluke of birth some children have a better advantage in life than others. Some humility is needed by many private school parents and an acceptance that they should expect to pay VAT for a luxury purchase they choose to make.

There's really nothing more to be said.

And it won’t bring in any money but it will bring more pupils to the state system where the existing funding will have to be spread among more pupils. Make inequality worse not better.

I live on a council estate in a South Wales valley town. I absolutely do not fucking care about this. There are parents around me that are making much bigger sacrifices than you just to keep their kids fed and clothed. Stop fucking whinging.

@MotherFeministWoman I think I love you.

My children (one with an EHCP for autism) have two teacher parents. We could never afford PE and I do believe they perpetuate inequality. However, I am not resentful or bitter or envious of parents who do - it is a choice after all. Financial circumstances change. Before children DH and I could choose holidays in the US and city breaks throughout the year, now we have a week in Spain. It maybe a poor analogy, but we all cut our cloth to what we can afford. I think the anger in posts comes from the excessive comments on “sacrifice” where the examples given showcase what is normal for most families.

This. Also a big reason why private schools are already closing all over the country (and putting up their fees without any VAT involved yet). All our local secondary schools (including the Outstanding ones) could absorb more pupils without any issues. There’s a catchment system here and all the schools have pretty mixed intakes across a variety of housing stocks and areas, so little point in anyone paying over the odds to live in one.

‘your DC’s grades are likely to drop as a result…’

My DCs are in a good state school, supported by parents who care very much about their education. They’ll be fine.
Like most kids in state schools.

And by good school, I mean good. Not outstanding, not one of those schools that people rave about that beat all the private schools on GCSE results - good. Like most schools.
The kind that private school parents sniff at as not good enough somehow because they aren’t selective, there’s no entrance exam, no-one gets tutored through SATs to look more attractive to the school.
Mixed ability and mixed talent. Some kids at DCs school will become doctors and dentists, lawyers and CEOs, some will become plumbers and electricians, some will barely scrape exam passes but excel at sport or art or drama or music.

A normal school. And if your child leaves private school and goes to my DCs school - or one of the thousands like it- just support them. They’ll be fine too.

And we desperately need to reform the state school system; it is not fit for purpose. And VAT on fees will not achieve that, I agree. But the tone deaf threads popping up all over MN do not make me sympathetic to those who will be paying it.

The private school near me that has told parents it is close to closing has also made it very clear to prospective parents that it does not welcome SEN pupils by the way. I understand how desperate it feels when a SEN child cannot cope in mainstream extremely well, and I suspect the parents using private education in these circumstances are disproportionately towards the lower end of private school parent incomes and over-represented as a percentage of those parents on these threads. But in reality many private schools cater very poorly for SEN kids and the majority of parents using private schools are not doing it for that reason.

Teachers don’t want to be there due to workload, box ticking exercises, entitled children, unsupportive parents, lack of effective discipline, lack of SEN support and funding… and that’s just the tip of the iceberg!

@Proa Oh gosh yes. I used to be a HLTA in primary schools and I loved it, worked in brilliant schools but that was back in 2013 I left. Things seem to have gone downhill in education nowadays.

I have a friend who really annoys me with her constant moans about every school her kid has been too! She will send me stories about her teenage kid being cheeky to teachers as if it’s a cute story! She told me that one of her kids slapped a TA in primary school because the TA was “ in her face”. Absolutely appalling entitled behaviour.

She also used to pay zero towards the school trip despite the suggested donation being £5 yet she’d have money for smartphones for all her kids, and she’d still complain if the quality of trips weren’t good enough! I have challenged her on all this as well, she always has an excuse and is constantly contacting the school to challenge her kids detention etc but doesn’t know what subjects her kids are taking or an awareness of their ability etc
When one of them was struggling with GCSE maths she just said it’s fine, because she didn’t pass maths either. I suggested she look into getting her child extra help be it through school or a tutor and she Wasn’t interested. Such low expectations. Not helping her kids in the long term.

I’m so glad I left education for a job that’s more easy going and pays more. One of the worst thing facing deprived schools is lack of positive parental engagement and poor discipline .
I’ve worked in cash strapped schools in developing nations where the parents are so pro-education and respectful of teachers that the kids still speak & write English (as a foreign language) better than the kids here and do better all round academically .

I think more funding can mitigate against the effect of poor parenting but I really hope
there’s a shift in society whereby people value education and teachers more.

I can understand the apathy to an extent as it seems as if the privileged will succeed regardless and working class with degrees are increasingly ending up with just debt but no graduate jobs so it kind of removes the incentive to learn perhaps?

But I think we still need to do better. Instil some ambition into children via the parents but if that’s lacking maybe needs to come through youth initiatives and schools etc. they don’t need to want to go to uni but they should aim for something other than “YouTuber” or “footballer” yes some will become these things and I do believe in dreaming big, but many don’t have the talent /won’t do the work to become accomplished in social media or sports.

@Toospotty Perhaps it is just in my area then (Surrey / Hampshire). As a both a parent, former teacher and now private tutor, there is a disproportionate amount of SEN students in private education; ASD, ADHD, dyslexia, anxiety etc.

I actually know very few students in private education who don’t have some sort of diagnosis. And that’s not just that as a SEN parent I am mixing with other SEN parents, most of my privately educated tutees have additional needs.

I don't think many, if any at all, are gleeful at the prospect of children having to move schools, probably because theu seriously doubt that many children will have to move schools. The overwhelming emotion is disgust at the "we're not wealthy but we make sacrifices" argument. Glee is not a verb, by the way.

There is a world of difference between having no empathy, and rubbing your hands in glee…

It is also much easier to fly under the radar and have undiagnosed SEN at private school. I’ve met many children who are clearly autistic, ADHD, dyslexic, but because they are in the correct setting (private school with small classes, teachers who know them very well, accepting peers) they do not need / want a diagnosis. This is very common too.

No one is rubbing their hands in glee

True.
Our school does have a blazer, shirt tie type uniform but the blazer cost £35 and the tie £6. Friend has sent DC to a private secondary and the blazer cost £190 and the tie £32…
Admittedly the blazer is the felt type and would last longer perhaps but it can only be dry cleaned- and her DC grew out of it after a year, just as mine did theirs… she joked that she hoped her DC stops growing before the end of schools years… and don’t get me started on the cost of their PE uniform!
Again, ours has a branded school top/shorts/ socks sports kit but at a quarter of the price AND our school provides branded items free of charge for kids who’s parents can’t afford it.
Ih, and I can chuck all of ours in the wash…

Oh my God, the persecution complex and self-victimisation is so strong with wealthy people.

Just pay the VAT, you can pay it. Or don't pay it and get little Archie a tutor and put him in a grammar school or whatever. Ether way, Alfie will be fine, you will be fine. This country has millions of children affected by food poverty. Meanwhile, your Alfie is part of the small percentage out of which this country's politicians, judges, artists are chosen pretty much exclusively. Some perspective is required.

English is a second language for me so thank you for the English lesson…

Agree re the argument. Anyone in a position to make those sacrifices at all comes from a position of privilege and it’s naive to claim otherwise. However as OP said, the topic brings out the usual nastiness when it comes to families who have money.

For what it’s worth, we plan to send our DC to the local state primary before anyone starts accusing me of having a vested interest.

No glee here. I wouldn’t pay much attention if it wasn’t for the hand wringing and wailing, despite my conviction that having a 2- tier education system isn’t good for the country.