That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

This and the re-education training in pp is Orwellian McCarthy territory

It attacks livelihoods and reality both

This with bells on!

Sing interesting information on this website. Lots of links. Into the murky workings of men and their impact on women’s rights.

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/04/05/labour-party-anthony-watson/

No why should women have to adapt around men

if a man decides he wants to present himself as woman he can have his own space as he is not a woman

YANBU op if we have been told this sort of thing episode be happening ten years ago we would have rolled our eyes and said don’t be ridiculous

If someone has gone to the considerable trouble of physically transitioning I welcome them into female spaces. (There is the very exceptional rapist but then there is the very exceptional born-female rapist, also)

Self identified trans in changing rooms: I stand with the female nurses but I sympathise with the principle that TW may feel wrong in male changing rooms for a variety of reasons. Perhaps the answer is to make common cause and campaign for a TW changing room?

As for intimate medical care, it is completely understandable that someone who has been traumatised prefers a woman, and for some there are religious strictures. Why can’t the rest of us give male professionals the benefit of the doubt? After all, men have been receiving intimate care including penile catheterisation from women for ages

If someone has gone to the considerable trouble of physically transitioning I welcome them into female spaces. (There is the very exceptional rapist but then there is the very exceptional born-female rapist, also)

Firstly, what do you mean by physically transitioning?

Secondly, my issue with this is women who have reason to be triggered by a male body in their personal space (rape victims for example) - it's of no consequence to them how 'transitioned' someone is. They will have a visceral reaction to a male body. I think these women matter too, so I can't support this approach.

Why is a man's claimed discomfort at being around other men more important than the safety and dignity and comfort of women?

And those operations very rarely involve removal of the penis and testicles. The most some 95% of these men do is get breasts via hormones.

Why can’t the rest of us give male professionals the benefit of the doubt?

If women don't want men doing their sanitary care or bladder/bowel care, isn't that enough. Why would you put pressure on women to do something they aren't comfortable with?

Perhaps the answer is to make common cause and campaign for a TW changing room?

The ‘third space’ option has been offered many many times but it seems that’s not giving good enough validation that TWAW and nothing short of total acceptance as a woman with full access to all single sex spaces is good enough for most of the TW.

Perhaps the answer is to make common cause and campaign for a TW changing room?

Women were doing this years ago. Third room options were rejected by TWs and TRAs, because that doesn't serve their purpose. No validation, no forcing unwilling spectators to play along.

There is no common cause between women and these men.

I mean people who have X, Y chromosome (which cannot be changed but is invisible), and surgically created breasts and a vagina. I think they will have undergone lesser surgeries as well, but I am far from knowledgeable.

I know two such women for sure, possibly three. Two have slight remnants of an Adam’s apple and none are short, but their bodies certainly appear female. I really can’t imagine what in their appearances could be triggering

A GRC doesn’t give you carte blanche to women’s spaces. The Equality Act still allows same sex spaces which disallow men with and without GRCs.

Can anyone explain how this can be enforced in practice? A TW with a GRC is legally female according to all their ID. The Registrar is not even permitted to reveal whether a birth registration/certificate has replaced an earlier one with a different sex marker.

So this gives women the 'right' to tell a 'woman' to 'go away' if 'she' looks like a man. Very useful, not.

I realise that no-one goes into a changing room clutching their birth certificate, let alone displaying their genitals, but this abuse of language has left us powerless to enforce the previous, perfectly workable, social norm of being able to segregate people based on a cursory inspection of gross body type.

This massively disadvantages the humans with the small, weak, impregnateable phenotype (for which there is no longer a word in law).

I am not pressuring anyone

Absolutely disgraceful!

They're still men, so no.

Quote honestly, I don't think any man who goes through puberty truly 'passes'. There is so much more to experiencing 'maleness' than simply what they look like. The sound of their voice, gait, scent, pheromones - all play a huge part and yes of course a male person will be triggering to a female who has reason to fear them.

I’m sorry you find women’s consent, or lack of, so problematic. Women don’t owe men access to their bodies. Out of interest, when did you decide male feelings are more important than female feelings?

Suggesting someone gives a male the 'benefit of the doubt' when theyve expressively said they want a female feels very pressurising to me. Why would you do this? Why wouldn't you simply respect this woman's boundaries?

YANBU

You can’t create a vagina anymore than you can create a heart! And no, a man with a boob job still looks like a man, his body doesn’t change, he doesn’t grow hips and a female waist etc.

Posted too soon.

I am not pressuring anyone, but it is worth considering that male professionals may offer great, nonsexist care. They can also be sexist pigs or give poor care, but so can women. Absent trauma, religious strictures or repeated bad incidents with one gender, I don’t quite get why it matters. Professional is professional

Also men historically have not had this option in their nursing care, as I said above. That hasn’t bothered society in the least.

Actually the figures of the three I am thinking of are somewhat curvy. I think it is the oestrogen

They may of course.

But if a woman says she wants a woman, for WHATEVER reason, what would your response be?

If they are perfectly disguised, then no-one will see through it and be upset. But people who put on a disguise in order to enter a normally forbidden place, exclusive to, and protective of, a more vulnerable group, are not usually seen quite so positively. I believe there's a well-known phrase or saying for it.

Or perhaps their bodies were relatively pear shaped before, who knows? We have testosterone and men have oestrogen. It would be interesting to know if higher natural oestrogen levels have anything to do with body shape and/or the choice to physically transition

And like everything about this debate, let's be careful about slippery language. 'Transitioned' is a totally misleading word. No one 'transitions' . A man who has had surgery etc is still every bit as male as he ever was. He is a male who's had surgery/other treatment