That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

Exactly

Don’t be ridiculous, there is no evidence whatsoever that taking cross sex hormones makes men grow hips. Amazing how no men taking cross sex hormones for cancer treatment make this claim.

Quite,an open wound which must never be allowed to heal is not a vagina.

@poetryandwine you seem to be unaware of a few key facts:

Firstly around 95% of men who identify as transwomen do not have genital surgery - the vast majority of transwomen have a fully functioning penis.

Secondly, men (however they identify) commit around 99% of sex crimes. Over half of the transwomen currently incarcerated in England are sex offenders according to Ministry of Justice figures. It appears that transwomen are even more likely than other male people to be sex offenders, possibly because paraphilias cluster.

So men and transwomen are considerably more dangerous than women.

You can't compare the risk of a woman providing intimate care for a man to the risk of a man (however he identifies) providing intimate care for a woman.

It was 2 possibly 3 a minute ago, what happened? How do you know all three people are trans all of a sudden?

It might be the doughnuts.

Well then your friends have got passing privilege and that's a big transphobic no-no. What about my TW friend who doesn't pass (lots of evidence that transitioning is therapeutically valuable for these ladies too!)? Is she in, or out?

What I don't understand is what kind of man would WANT to go and get changed in a women's changing room. The nice men that I know wouldn't even dream of doing so as they would know it would either scare those women or make them feel incredibly awkward. I don't care if said man is saying that he's a woman. He has a penis and should just get over himself and get changed in the men's changing room. To my mind it is obvious from his comments to that poor woman that he just wanted to watch her get changed. It's disgusting. If it's okay for this to happen, then any woman who fancies it should also be allowed to say "I'm a man today" and go and get changed in the men's changing room. Funny how we hear nothing about this ever happening.

It would depend how easy it was to grant her wish.

If she wanted a female bowel or gynaecological surgeon, one might only be able to wish her good luck finding one, or add her to an exceptionally long waiting list of those with similar views. Suppose she had an aggressive cancer. What would you say to her in those circumstances?

Anyone who would urge her to seek lifesaving care from a male surgeon rather than wait acknowledges that the question is one of degree.

On a hospital ward, I would prioritise those with a history of trauma, then integrate the smooth running of the ward with doing my best to honour the requests of the others.

If she wanted a female bowel or gynaecological surgeon, one might only be able to wish her good luck finding one, or add her to an exceptionally long waiting list of those with similar views. Suppose she had an aggressive cancer. What would you say to her in those circumstances?

I have only ever been talking about intimate care, if you look at my posts.

So with that in mind, is that okay for women to specify or do you need them to have a justification?

If it's okay for this to happen, then any woman who fancies it should also be allowed to say "I'm a man today" and go and get changed in the men's changing room. Funny how we hear nothing about this ever happening.

The “Man Friday” protestors carried out a number of actions, the most well known being the one reported here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/topless-woman-male-only-swimming-pool-protest-gender-recognition-act-amy-desir-dulwich-south-london-a8261801.html

I don’t even know what this means.

In my circles once you have surgically and hormonally transitioned we welcome you as a woman. Not someone who is ‘passing’, but someone who was born into the wrong body.

Both of the women I am thinking of have wept with joy the first time they were included in significant female only events. It was humbling

I don’t pass judgment on people I don’t know. I generally look for common ground, try to stay alert for bias in myself and others, but do believe that sadly a very small minority of TW are trouble. Should they mess it up for others? Of course not. Is the male nurse in the OP one of them? I am on the fence. I do think the answer is a TW changing room in this particular case, if only for his lack of sensitivity.

I answered fully above. Also I fail to see the difference between being splayed on the operating table for a surgeon and group if students who will be coming round to check up on you during your recovery, and intimate care.

I also find it interesting that no one is addressing the double standard men endure

Is the male nurse in the OP one of them? I am on the fence.

I don’t think you can have read the article. Either that, or you are so ideologically compromised that you can’t see that there is a problem.

someone who was born into the wrong body

Nobody is born in the wrong body.

I am far from knowledgeable

You don't say.

It doesn't really matter what you think the difference is. You don't get to make that call for other women, correct?

As for men, of course they should be supported as they advocate for what they need.

Two are friends, both changed names, acquired breasts, etc. One spoke quite a lot with me. One spoke with a mutual friend quite a lot. One is a colleague who has not spoken directly with me

If I am the Sister running the ward I do

Not someone who is ‘passing’, but someone who was born into the wrong body.

What does this even mean? Where's the 'right' body? What went wrong?

I understood that to be the context for your question

@poetryandwine men can choose to be treated by a male or female HCP just as a woman can. Everyone, regardless of sex, has the right to decide who can or cannot touch their bodies, intimately or otherwise.

There are no 'double standards' that men must 'endure' in this regard.

I am not pressuring anyone, but it is worth considering that male professionals may offer great, nonsexist care.

Of course they can. And I personally have no issue with male healthcare professionals when it comes to me - I've had vaginal exams carried out by male drs.

But I don't think that's remotely relevant when it comes to another woman who doesn't want that. I absolutely believe that a woman who wants a female HCP should get one.

You get to consent for other women if you're the sister ?

Erm, I think you need to read up on some medical ethics

@borntobequiet Thank you. I didn't know about this. Very interesting.

There is no amount of surgery or hormones that can turn a man into a woman. I respect your right to accept the risk of the occasional rapist into women's spaces but how dare you suggest that other women should on the basis that women sometimes rape too. Women can never be rapist's because they do not have a penis which is a requirement to meet the legal definition of rape.

As a PP said, third spaces were rejected by trans activists because safety is not the motivating factor for the entitled men who wish to invade women's spaces; it's validation. What other groups of potentially vulnerable men do you think should have access to women's spaces?

Women do not owe you or anyone else a reason for why they would prefer a female health care provider, we are not obliged to sacrifice our own comfort to give male health care providers the benefit of the doubt. A preference for female health care providers does not arise from the belief that male health care providers are predators FFS.

If there were more men in health care then male patients would not have so much of their intimate care provided by women. If a male patient had ever expressed, to me, a preference for a male care provider I would have done everything in my power to accommodate that and not tell him to give me the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if being female gives me the ability to respect someone else's comfort and dignity.