That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

@PencilsInSpace Yes, the "year long wait to identify which prisoners are trans" line sounded wrong, and it also completely contradicts the other common TRA argument that male prisoners can be put in women's prisons because all prisoners are thoroughly risk assessed before placement. It's inconceivable that a trans identity wouldn't be considered a risk factor (to the individual or others) at this point.

I won’t argue the theory but I will ask you to read the articles.

Read the articles as I have read many, many posts recommended by your lot. I deliberately skipped by the ones that seemed partisan, whereas the ones recommended to me were from the Sun and the Telegraph - the 2 most rightwing popular newspapers in the UK

Also MoJ suggest people may fail to self identify at first for complex reasons

If a male prisoner has a GRC then I don't think they're included in the number of transgender prisoners as they are recorded as women

Read the articles, or does a nonpartisan approach threaten you?

@poetryandwine
Sorry but your application of statistical theory is badly flawed here. For the law of large numbers to apply here we'd be talking about a small sample size leading to inaccurate results. But in this situation we're not randomly sampling, we're counting concrete data.

Suppose I asked "How many people still alive have been to the moon?" and after a quick Google we discover the answer is 4, and we can then easily work out the percentage of people alive who have been to the moon. Now if someone disputes that figure because the sample is too small, then they completely misunderstand statistics. Nothing has been sampled, we counted. Four WAS a small number here, but it WASN'T a small sample, because it wasn't a sample at all. Small samples are usually inaccurate, small numbers are no less accurate than large ones.

Does a non partisan approach now involve deliberately skipping over the bits that you don't think you'll agree with

Hurrah, proper stats, thank you.

You haven't linked any articles.

You mentioned two, I've read the BBC one before. I would suggest that an article called ‘Transgender prison population forms toxic debate’ will not be impartial.

In any case, both of them pre-date the new prison rules so are not helpful.

I'm just imagining them having to wait a year before they can buy their stockings and lippy on the canteen. Can you imagine the uproar! 😱

Prison onset gender dysphoria is a thing, but I don't necessarily think it's that complex...

I think this is 'higher level debate'

Actually not, @undertaker. You have only given the formal statement if the LoLN, not how it is mostly used.

Presumably most on this thread are familiar with the fact that when medical studies are reported in the media, sometimes it is mentioned that the study was small and needs to be repeated. The study has actual numbers too, @undertaker.The concern is that because of the LoLN we cannot multiply them up until the sample size is increased.

This applies to the incredibly small known prison population of trans women. 1. We can’t know their criminal tendencies in percent terms without an accurate count. 2. We certainly cannot scale or multiply it

See above. Do feel free to give me your own interpretation of the LoLN

Hi, @spannasaurus - I can’t help noticing that your request for good ideas made earlier today, which I rather admired, has thus far been met by a deafening silence

I would suggest that nothing in the Sun and little in the Telegraph would be impartial. Shall we work out an agreed group of sources? I have suffered some frankly disgusting ones already, from PPs. I assure you Staffordshire University is a beacon of civility by comparison

Perhaps we should restrict to the Times, the BBC and nonpartisan academic sources? Though I must warn you that I do mean nonpartisan.

Hi, @nothingcomestonothing a couple of YP here are a bit concerned as to what could be puzzling you, as am I.

If you will tell us the first sentence you find incoherent I am sure we can clear things up

Did I miss your post with the good ideas

I only took ordinary level debate which is maybe why I didn't recognise it

You gave a general call out. I’m leaving it to your team.

You don't need to "scale it", it's not a sample it's a count. You could improve the accuracy of the count by having better data collection both in prisons and the census, or you could make it more current by performing the count more frequently, but you don't need to scale it. We're not saying "of the X trans people we randomly selected, Y were in prison, so scaling that up to the whole population we conclude Z trans people are in prison", we're just counting absolute numbers.

The BBC as an impartial source on this topic?? Now I know you're not in good faith, good lord.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/02/bbc-reprimands-journalist-justin-webb-for-telling-truth/

Oops sorry, used another impure source for the reference, try a legal opinion instead:

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2024/03/01/the-bbc-ruling-on-justin-webb-ignoring-public-confusion-and-scientific-fact/

I am with MoJ who regard it as a likely under count.