That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

Largely because I have been attempting to answer your questions, some sarcastic or mistaken, whilst living my life.

So I'm right, you havent read any of it, despite it being my evidence that you asked for.

Not sure I can be of any more help until you read the thread I linked.

We also cannot guess or know for definite who has or not had surgery.

We aren't allowed to ask. We have to assume they all had surgery.

Parliament passes laws and rescinds them so in that sense it is the ‘maker’ of laws. But it cannot do just anything. The Office of Parliamentary Counsel must ensure that bills coming to a vote are constitutional, and OPC actually writes the text of the laws. Doing this right takes great skill. This is what I have been referring to all along.

Parliament will decide something and OPC will need to make it work

The Office of the Parliamentary Counsel is a group of GOVERNMENT lawyers who specialise in drafting legislation.
**
OPC is part of the Cabinet Office.

aka the government

With around 330 surgeries in one recent year and a reasonable working assumption of 100,000 trans women in the UK, it is most unreasonable to assume they’ve all had surgery.

I will get to the thread. I do have a life

Agreed. I thought that was clear. Other lawyers will engage at different pointscin the process

It seemed clear to me thst @Winnading was referring to Parliament by the use of the phrase ‘the Government’. She validated this in her subsequent post

There were trans people using the toilets I refer to in club. Trans people have been around for years, the media just wasn't turning people against them. I'm not saying there isn't an increase, there is, although the increase is mainly female-male.
Must have been some feral people in your uni cohort, I never experienced such immature behaviour when I was at uni, that sounds more like high school boys behaviour.
No something doesn't have to have happened to me be an issue but this is just fear mongering from the media, the majority of trans people are respectful law abiding people. Many people are sexually assaulted by people who are not trans. There is also male on male sexual violence, hence my preference for unisex individual cubicles as I am a mother of sons and my sons deserve just as much protection as my daughter does.

Labour have a very shaky stance on this issue. But the complete destruction of women’s single-sex rights has happened under a Tory govt. Tories are in charge of the NHS-this has happened on their watch.

How do you think Scotland and Wales compare though? And that’s before you get to Canada and co

Does anyone have the equivalent of the Cass Review?

The problem is Labour think they didn't go far enough.

Actually, it’s civil servants that start the legislation (I was closely involved in 2-3 Acts that became Bills during my time on Whitehall.)

We got it about 60% of the way with our departmental lawyer and the OPC then did their thing. They don’t draft from scratch.

Thank you

Well you are privileged that you haven't been directly affected but other women haven't been so fortunate and it's not media fear mongering to point out that TW commit at least as many sexual assaults as other men and so shouldn't be in women's spaces.

They were actually medical students which I suppose helps partially explain the misogyny in medicine and medical care.

Of course both sexes should be protected from all violence but this is a thread about women’s spaces being taken over by a man (who sounds quite predatory). It’s a fact that sexual violence is almost always carried out by men on women hence one needing safe spaces.

But how far do you go with safe spaces? I'm sure there are more sexual assaults in the streets than their are in changing rooms. I am 100% certain most take place in a home. Should we have women only parks too? I wouldn't even be against that, I'm just putting it out there. Most sexual assaults, particularly against children, are committed in the home by family members. Do we have single sex households to so that women and children always have a safe space in the place they are most vulnerable?
I'm a feminist, both physical and sexual violence is most often perpetrated by men on to women, I know that and I know it is women who need the most protection. However, when it comes to children boys and girls need equal protection.
Trans people are also at a higher risk of violence from men and it is men who aren't trans commiting the huge majority of physical and sexual violence against women. Trans people also need protection.

I in no way support open changing rooms were trans people can share. However, I also don't want open changing rooms where I have to undress in front of other women either. I don't want to have to send my son in to a male only changing room but don't want him to be uncomfortable or frowned upon in a female changing room (I'm talking aged between about 7-13 where they are past the little age where it is acceptable but still not old enough to keep themselves safe). I also don't want my DH to have to send my daughter in to female only on her own.
Mixed sex changing rooms with private cubicles would be the only way to achieve privacy for everyone and they do work. They are in lots of places with no issues.

If transwomen are allowed in women’s spaces and it becomes the norm, those spaces are then mixed sex. That means that if you see any common-or-garden bloke in the ladies’ changing room, even a burly man with a full beard, it becomes much more difficult to report him as an intruder. Why? Because males in female spaces will have been normalised.

If your daughter was sexually assaulted by a TW in a female-only space, would you say “well, them’s the breaks, cis women assault people too, we can’t tar all TW with the same brush. This one was a bad apple but hey, ‘she’ is still a woman and it was right for ‘her’ to be in the ladies’ facilities.”

Or would you say “hang on a minute, that person is male, however he identifies, and this attack could have been prevented if only men weren’t allowed in women’s spaces.” I know what I’d be saying.

Trans people are also at a higher risk of violence from men and it is men who aren't trans commiting the huge majority of physical and sexual violence against women. Trans people also need protection.

Firstly I'm not sure there's any evidence for your first point.

Secondly, why can't transwomen focus on their own protection without involving women? What you're talking about is violence against men by other men. Why involve women to be 'shields'?

@JLou08
Legally declaring certain streets or homes single sex is obviously unworkable and unreasonable. Keeping changing rooms single sex on the other hand is entirely reasonable.

Trans people are also at a higher risk of violence from men

Men are more violent and more likely to sexually assault say men.
So the solution is to open up women-only spaces to men??? WTF!

Compare the Trans identified men vs men who don't wear dressed record of committing sexual assaults and tell me you still want them in with your daughters!

@Winnading I have read your link, at least scanning the837 entries

A proper analysis would be a serious job for someone. There are a fair number of repeats. A large percent but far from all involve trans women. A significant portion clearly do not involve trans women.

Many entries such as those involving hidden cameras in a small Costa loo are unknown. It is a unisex loo but it is also single user.

Interestingly I found only 4 reports in the medical realm. 1. A female mental patient making multiple physical assaults on staff. 2. A trans woman sexually assaulting but not raping a man during a spa treatment 3. A rape of a female patient committed by a trans woman at an NHS hospital. Unknown whether the rapist was patient or staff, but we know from upthread that the large majority of assaults in hospital are committed by patients 4. A male American doctor found guilty of sexually assaulting over 200 female patients.

The sparseness of reports in this area, 1/2 of 1%, is interesting

Absent further knowledge, the only statistically valid assumption to make about the proportion of physically transitioned amongst trans women convicted of crimes is that it is the same as the percent of the physically transitioned among all trans women. There are many free introductory resources on statistical modelling discussing this.

I don’t have the number of physically transitioned. Perhaps you can find it

Oh piss off with your 'physically transitioned' sophistry. They're men. No matter what surgery they have, or drugs they take, they're men. Are men who've lost their penis to a landmine women? How about men who've lost their penis to cancer? No. They're men.

Trying to pare down surgeried versus not surgeried, HSTS versus AGP, trutrans versus grifters, it's all moving deckchairs on the Titanic. Just stop trying to make make it ok for men to be in women's spaces None of them are women, none of them belong in women's single sex spaces.

To be honest, I used to take the same position a few years ago when "Be Kind" was still in place for me.
What's the harm I thought, if some transsexual gay men who I thought were vulnerable wanted to use the women's bathrooms. What harm would an effeminate gay man do? He just wants to wear makeup and dresses. What's the harm?

But transvestites? Everyone knew it was sexual fetish, mocked, something that government ministers did in secret. Hilarious. Vile. Comedy. But MEN. Straight men who liked wearing their wives underwear.

Now they are both under the umbrella of "transgender"

So here are 187 examples of trans-identified males who have predated on women and/or children. The thing that never happens:

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens

Maybe some of the posters here who are so naively and blithely happy to open up our spaces to any and all men (because how can you tell who has had surgery or not) could read about some of the things that never happened.

@poetryandwine so raise the discourse then and stop whining that no one is speaking at your exalted level where apparently you seem to think you are too good for the discussion here. You remind me rather of Robin Moira White in your rather robotic delivery. Maybe chance your arm over in the feminist section and see how quickly they dismantle your high minded pretentions at understanding something that the rest of us are missing.

You've yet to say anything that gives any reasonable argument as to why to allow men in women's intimate spaces.