That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

And this is higher level debate?

It doesn’t make sense wrt the law.. or generally

Your telling me your "female"friends havent said they knew as young as 2 years old they were trans?

That would be unusual to say the least. Jazz Jennings knew at 2. Allegedly.
My own children at two were variously teenage ninja turtles and batman and spiderman etc

Oh yeah?
How can law be written to include your friends and not the likes of Sarah Jane?

????

I never used this language anywhere. AFAIK you have just introduced it to the thread

We are not lawyers , at least I am not and none of my correspondents sound like one. There is a reason they undergo rigorous training.

The point is that it persists beyond childhood

Read the history. Earlier people were being very rigid about physique. I pointed out that it means nothing. Some, like this person, got confused.

My guess is that they wrongly thought I was making a connection between pear shaped men and trans women. No, I just have a few male friends who have been couch potatoes their whole lives, and it shows

Read the history. The question was factual and only concerned my friends. No debating points involved

FFS this is not about being alone around men and fine you know it. Stop being so deliberately obtuse.

It is about having to undress in front of a man who is at best a colleague, at worst a stranger. It’s about women being made to feel unsafe at work because a man wants them to feel unsafe and gets a kick out of them being undressed and vulnerable in front of him.

If you can’t see this, then maybe you need some training yourself.

In what other class of humanity do you demand no rotten apples?

We’ve had horror stories recently about male surgeons. @ArabellaScott pointed out a case of a female, a trans man, recently milling a female nurse. This was well upthread and only a new poster and I commented. Another PP got the gender of the killer wrong.

We have female and male parents and teachers as well as children who abuse and kill. Also clergy and police, of course.

SJB is despicable but no worse than others. All victims are equally worthy of protection. I agree fully with reasonable levels of protection for women. You do you. I focus my energy on other groups I regard as more vulnerable

As I said, I will leave the law to lawyers

You keep on saying this.
Some of us here have been having this disagreement from the 1980s. We do know what we're talking about.

If you cant see the very obvious point that allowing one man in single sex spaces makes that space now mixed sex for all, then we cant help you.

But one day you will see, it will affect you or yours. And you will be ashamed of how you treated women on this board. How recalcitrant you were to see our side.

Thats on you.

I agree fully with reasonable levels of protection for women.

But you include some men into the category 'women'. You've said so. So you really don't believe in protecting women, because the easiest simplest fairest way to protect women is to exclude all men all of the time from all women-only spaces. And you don't want that.

Anyone who wants to learn about the process of physical transitioning might do well to read Jan Morris’ book Conundrum, as I will.

It was published in 1974 and garnered excellent reviews in the mainstream press. Morris is regarded as one of the greatest travel writers ever and a significant British author of the 20th c. Rebecca West called her ‘our finest descriptive 20th century author’.

As explained upthread, I inadvertently plagiarised the phrase ‘gendered souls’ from reviews of this book. The phrase has been the source of much scholarly discussion through the decades. Those who feel it reflects sloppy thinking must decide whether they wish to apply that description to a significant phrase of a great author, as judged by experts, or whether they were making a personal attack

Oh, this misogynist abusive husband and father Jan Morris? The experiences of trans widows and children of transitioners are worth hearing, so thanks for bringing Morris into the discussion.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11527279/Celebrated-writer-Jan-Morris-bully-hug-children-daughter-claims.html

Cant you read your own posts

I was the first on this thread to speak of chromosomal invariance

this means intersex. Hth

Source, please, as google is not turning anything up

No claim about her personal virtue, only artistic talent. Sadly few great writers/artists etc seem to lead exemplary lives

Whether you regard 'gendered souls' as religious or literary language, neither makes a good basis for law, the protection of human rights, or safeguarding.

Well your googling wrong

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

Not heard of Primark porn then?

This article is only about intersex. I was searching on ‘chromosomal invariance’. I am interested in a source for your claim that the latter means intersex. None in the Cleveland Clinic link you sent along

Leaving this to the lawyers …

Lawyers (not a protected word btw) or rather solicitors do not make law. Governments do
Hows that 'higher level of debate' going for you.

So John gets rushed to the top of the list for surgery and hormone therapy because he fancies being Janet.

But I, an actual woman that has had to shave her face daily for 25 years, who can’t get an appt to talk about HRT as I suffer peri-menopause symptoms, who has suffered for years with size JJ boobs, who was butchered during childbirth and couldn’t get anyone to help for 7 years gets nothing.

seems like a good use of sparse resources to me.

It's utterly stupid and it gives ALL male to female trans a bad reputation! I know/have known quite a few m-to-f trans and not one of them would do such an appalling thing as to put biological women in a dangerous situation, in fact they'd try to protect them.

Now these nurses have been told they'd have to go on training courses, it's like saying women shouldn't be out at night alone, we shouldn't dress in a certain way, we shouldn't drink in public, we shouldn't go out at all ... why are WE being told what we can and can't do when it's the creepy pervy men who should be locked up?

Good on those nurses for suing the NHS!