That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

Well quite

I said the TW community as any community contains its share. The fully transitioned community, like any community, surely does also.

As does the female community.

Each of these communities also contsins its share of wonderful people. No cog diss there

Point of interest: how many convicted sex and violence offenders can you all name amongst the medically and physically transitioned? Is SJB even amongst them? After the transition, of course

Well it's tough shit for me, until they guarantee no men of any gender identity I'm not going.

Breast screening is meant to be single sex.
If I die of breast cancer, then so be it.
Itll be men and women like poetry who seem unable to see letting men in one space, means letting men in any space who are to blame.

I dont want a man near me for nursing or care. I am still allowed that for now. And I'd rather die than have men nursing me or giving intimate care.

I know the fetishes they have, christ we all know the fetishes they have, I want no part of that. I do not consent to be a part in someones fetish.

The dissonance is clearly there, even if you can't see it.

How can you be arguing that a person simultaneously deserves to be treated as a woman as a 'reward' but is also an 'arsehole' whose inclusion will cause other women harm?

Which law are you referring to? Current law does not distinguish between those who have had surgery and those who have not.

Interesting point. Perhaps it should be tested.

I believe it has in Japan

I am not mixing up the singular and collective nouns.

Do you honestly think any category of human of reasonable size fails to contain both good and bad people? We make rules for categories of people, not individuals

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=1

The itll never happen thread, for all those things that never happen to women.
It's a 34 pages right now, but of course, itll never happen.

Changing villages are ideal for predatory voyeurs. This us the most recent thread I could see on the topic but there have been many similar...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5062240-voyeurs-in-gender-neutral-changing-rooms

As well as voyeurism, assaults in mixed sex changing settings are more common than in single sex.

Once again the simple alternative to all this is just to say to trans women that although they may have a "female gender identity" and that is very important to them, some spaces are organised by sex and not gender identity. So for the ten minutes or so they are getting changed, they will be either be in a room with men, or some third space where available.

The point is that you want to confer special rights on a category of people. On the grounds they are 'deserving' and should be 'rewarded'. Yet in very significant ways they are not deserving at all. Strong dissonance.

Before getting on with my day, I just want to say that I inadvertently plagiarised the great travel writer Jan Morris, formerly James Morris, yesterday.

I had read reviews of her memoir of transitioning, Conundrum, that quoted passages from the book using the phrase ‘gendered souls’ and similar wording. Some of the discussions also quote Virginia Woolf along the same lines.

Think what you will of the phrase, but know that your criticism is really directed against a great British author, possibly two.

I dont know how many times it has to be said
Trans women(stop using tw, its offensive and could get your posts or the whole thread deleted) are registed as women, the identity they wish to have.

So most times, in the papers, in the news, by the police, they are called women.
You know, just like you do for a certain few. So finding crimes committed by trans women is a matter of looking at pictures and knowing that certain crimes are committed substantially more by men than women.

Tl/dr
The whole thing is insane but crimes committed by men and trans women are noted as committed by women.

You know when you finally see what we are talking about, this post wont age well.

If that’s true I won’t be the only poster of whom that could be said

Just to add that Sarah Jane Baker is not actually that much of an outlier. He was given a platform to speak at London Trans Pride, and his rallying cry of “if you see a terf, punch them in the f!?£ing face” was met with a rapturous cheer. When he was recalled to prison, there was a Free Sarah Jane campaign going on. It wasn’t just arseholes and outliers supporting him. Pink News, a mainstream LGBT publication read by many people, not just arseholes and outliers, was also on his side.

It was because Baker was angry, you see. He got riled up and lost control because he feels so passionately about these issues and how badly done to he is. He didn’t literally mean for terfs to be punched, he was just saying that as a publicity stunt. Sigh.

With regard to Poetry’s posts, I think many of us start out thinking gender dysphoria is awful, only a tiny minority of people transition, what harm can it do to be kind etc. When you examine it more closely you realise that allowing any male to declare himself female opens the door to abusers and grifters. And those genuine, lovely, decent TW who wouldn’t harm a fly are still destroying women’s rights if they enter women’s spaces. You might be ok with it Poetry but is it fair for a rape survivor to hear a male voice in the Ladies? She will recognise it as a male voice and this could be immensely triggering for her while she’s in a vulnerable state.

Being kind to male people with feminine gender identities is all well and good, but the safeguarding, dignity and privacy of natal women must always come first. It’s not hateful or bigoted to say that.

Yes. For example we have single sex spaces (which you say you agree with) so that the whole category of men are excluded from women's spaces even though the majority are not dangerous.

You want to change the rules for individual men who you have decided deserve to be recognised as women because they've tried very hard / been through surgery or whatever.

As if womanhood was some sort of reward for effort and not simply a biological category.

It's not clear how you will limit access to only those men who have had genital surgery. Are you proposing genital inspections before entry?

I am not really paranoid. I am prepared to let intelligent people give this some thought

By your own rules (operations and drugs) he is allowed in with women.

You repeatedly said hormones, operations, a real feeling of being a woman and then your a woman. So he is a woman. Allowed in all the single sex women only spaces. You havent said, but your curvy friends, do you let them in the womens toilets when your out? According to you they pass, so I guess you do?

Which friends?

Pear shaped married hetero couch potato men? No

Medically transitioned women? Of course

Those were my categories. Go back if confused

You dont get to use intersex or as is now dsd (disorders of sexual development)
They have repeatedly and vehemently said to keep them out of this argument.

So honour that and never put the two together.

So you are all for single sex, women only toilets, EXCEPT for your friends.

Sigh.

And yet by your own rules, we have to let the arseholes in too.

Why tf would we want anyone like this in the same place as us?

Single sex, except for your mates.

That small minority will keep at least half of women out. And that's a conservative number.

All those women who for many reasons cannot access mixed sex spaces where they are vulnerable. What do we do with those women? Where do they go?