That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

There should be private changing cubicles. There's been mixed changing rooms at my local pool for years with private cubicles and it works very well, ideal for me when I was going with my children and wouldn't have been comfortable sending him into a separate changing room.
I wouldn't be comfortable changing in front of a man or a woman and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If the worry is the trans person is attracted to women then surely gay men and women being in the same room as people of the same sex undressing is an issue too.
Unisex private cubicles is the most sensible thing to suit everyone.

If the worry is the trans person is attracted to women then surely gay men and women being in the same room as people of the same sex undressing is an issue too.

No, that is not the worry

Read the thread

Yet you want to 'reward' and 'welcome' arseholes like this into women's spaces, in ways that will make vulnerable women (not arseholes) less safe. We might be forgiven for thinking your priorities are off

I have responded to this mischaracterisation of my views already.

Henceforth: Ihrttmomva

Yes, this. Poetry you decided a specific category of men have earned the right to be considered women. Since you've decided these specific men count as women due to having had surgery and medication, it's not unreasonable to point out some of the men who fit your criteria are dangerous violent sex offenders, and question if you still think it's a good one.

And the over 90% who dont have an operation?
What happens to them?
They are considered trans when they state they are trans. They might not have the money for operations, they might be unable for many reasons to have such a brutal operation, but they are still trans.

You telling me we can just leave them out of everything? Does that sound fair and equitable.

You seem petty, saying one group of trans is to be feted, allowed access, but this other group of trans is chopped liver.

Jessica Krug was a chameleon with no fixed ethnic identity. She adopted many variants. In her confession she claimed PTSD. Without being in a position to judge, I note that the article does not offer any other rationale for her shifting shape.

Rachel D was born a blue eyed blonde with straight hair. According to Wikipedia sources she only started perming her hair and darkening her skin in adulthood.

She grew up with all the privileges of being a white child of white parents. Her family also categorically refute her claim that the family lived in South Africa during her childhood, though the parents were missionaries there later

If other claims she has made are true she could also be suffering from trauma.

No, I do not believe such a history entitles her to count herself as African American but mainly I think she is rather sad

The law will not distinguish between men with a GRC with surgery and those without

I’m not sure @poetryandwine understands that

And that’s before you get to no one asks for GRCs anyway so men can enter

I don’t agree with it being that binary, actually. There is a difference (to me) of a physical transformation and a social one. I’m sure someone will be along shortly to say the TRAs see this statement as literal violence or whatever, but I see either extreme end as problematic.

But i’m getting sucked in, as I said in my previous post, I don’t get involved in these tbh reads anymore. Learnt the lesson many times over that it’s not worth my time or emotional energy.

I’m not sure @poetryandwine understands that

I'm not sure there's much if any understanding of the issues that have been discussed in depth (with receipts) on here for years.

Have you become a TW supporter, @winnading? Wow!

No, I have only said above that the situation is complex and like many on this thread I support single sex changing rooms. Ideally, as a PP has said, private cubicles would lay the problem to rest.

The surgery is free on the NHS

Discussed above. Physically transitioned men have been using female spaces for decades, quietly, before the whole thing blew up politically thanks to the inclusion of the larger TW community.

I believe it is be a breach of international human rights law to make a persons rights dependent on being sterilised so it would be impossible to restrict GRCs to those who have had surgery.

This idea always perturbs me. If you look at the prison population certain demographics are over-represented compared to gen pop.

One way to interpret this is that certain types of people - lower SE classes, certain races etc - are inherently more dangerous / criminal.

Of course, another way to look at it is that they face systemic discrimination that creates situations and pressures that lead into criminality.

Yes, and Sarah Jane Baker and Laverne Cox were both born male with a penis. They grew up with all the privileges of being male.

How does such a history entitle either of them to count themselves as women?

Nope, I'm showing your argument that some are allowed, but not others is discriminatory.
We either allow all or none.

I'm for none, no men ever in women only spaces.
You seem to believe you are kind, but you are not kind. You discriminate against some.

Who are you to say if you go through with an operation (that few can have, even if they wanted it) that's the ticket to women only spaces.

What about those who genuinely cannot have an operation. Theres a lot of them. Old, ill with other things, had it and it went wrong, cant wait the many years it takes on the NHS, cant have it in their country cos insurance wont cover it, but cant afford it, etc.

In fact you are saying once you've waited 10 years for the op on the NHS, you can be a woman, until then, chopped liver it is.
What are these people until the operation?
What are these people if they cant ever have the operation?
If it goes wrong, needs more intervention surgery, which takes time, what are these people then? Are they men or women?
When do they become women? What has to happen for them in your world to be women. Is it only one operation, seven operations.
Can you see how discriminatory you are being?

I support single sex changing rooms

You keep saying this @poetryandwine but you also say you accept some special deserving men into women's spaces.

Both can't be true.

“If a man wants to pretend he’s a woman, that’s up to him. If he wants me to pretend he’s a woman, that’s up to me.”

This just about sums the whole thing up to me.

Private changing cubicles might be OK in some settings, although they are a less efficient use of space, and they pose far greater risks of voyeurism.

I don't think it's a good idea to rebuild the thousands of single sex communal changing rooms up and down the country, just to avoid the awkwardness of having to tell some men "no you cannot use the women's changing rooms".

What’s discussed above?

I cannot see where you accept the law will not distinguish between surgery and no surgery for men with a GRC

You say you want a higher level conversation and the law matters, you’re stumbling over this basic fact

And this

Indeed. Well said

How are voyeurs going to practice their hobby through opaque partitions as opposed to in the open?

Society needs to decide whether the expense is worth it. I suggest that a campaign for human dignity, including privacy for those with disabilities, is likely to gain more traction than a focus on a group containing many harmless, even well meaning, individuals

Exactly

There is also considerable cognitive dissonance in addressing the point that some of these men are 'deserving' but also 'arseholes' who could cause women harm. How are these things being weighed up?

And I keep saying I am willing to give the law a chance. We never get 100% of what we want in this world.