That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

But letting in the small minority who you believe have earned it, lets in all the others. There's no way to let in the 'trutrans wouldn't hurt a fly just trying to live their lives' TW, without letting in Sarah Jane Baker and a whole load of other equally dangerous TW. You don't seem to understand that. As soon as some men, however nice, however few, count as women, the game is over for women.

No, it's not hypothetical at all.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/06/15/jenner-dolezal-one-trans-good-other-not-so-much

https://thecritic.co.uk/i-wanna-be-black/

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-layered-deceptions-of-jessica-krug-the-black-studies-professor-who-hid-that-she-is-white

@poetryandwine so what higher level are you trying to debate at? What are your higher level concepts you are trying to bring to the table?
Gender dysphoria: let's look at that shall we?

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

•	A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
•	A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
•	A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
•	A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
•	A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
•	A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

This is all about desires and wishes. The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):
• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

This is all about dislike of a child's own body and superficial clothing types and toys based on gender stereotypes.

See my post below yours

See my later post..

Sarah Jane Baker has gone to 'great lengths to resolve their gender dsyphoria.'

That's your criteria. He fits it.

"Ironically I differ from almost all PPs only in supporting the use of the label ‘woman’ by those who have physically transitioned - I think they’ve earned it."

And this is one of the great lies of the transgender movement - that you can earn a status by going through enough procedures. How is this different to plastic surgery addicts?

poetryandwine · Yesterday 10:22

If someone has gone to the considerable trouble of physically transitioning I welcome them into female spaces.

Make your mind up.

Didn't somebody actually do that, and got roasted as a racist?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal

Even people who have white parents but look Black are criticised if they accept help intended to mitigate Black disadvantage. And people who look Black do suffer disadvantage, in a way that a TW will never suffer the disadvantages of being born female.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/10/white-parents-african-ancestry-anthony-ekundayo-lennon

"Identifying as the opposite sex is the same as identifying as a different race" = "No it's entirely different because magic gender dysphoria!"

"Women dont want men in their spaces" = "You are being like a racist bigot!"

Fecking tories. How have they got away with this.

Didn't somebody actually do that, and got roasted as a racist?

Well exactly.

And Rachel Dolezal certainly went to considerable effort to make her 'inner identity align with her physical self'.

So why should TW get rewarded and 'welcomed' for that (according to Poetry) whereas she got pilloried for the same thing?

@poetryandwine you do realise this?

Presumably also these "magic women" who have earned it are now allowed to have their rights trump that of the boring old women who were "privileged" enough to be born that way.

@Bingbangbollox yes. They do their cause real harm by jumping on people with slightly different opinions. They’re as bad as the TRAs.

You elided this into a discussion of young children, by focussing on toys. No responsible clinician would take medical action on a young child and indeed in the UK none do.

‘Desires’ and ‘wishes’ are clinical descriptions.

Gender dysphoria is not just a childhood condition

We can disagree. Law will be the ultimate arbiter, and it can be written in all sorts of ways.

Best focus your energy on your MP

See above.

People can post on mn it doesn’t just have to be MP letter

That won’t do much

Law will be the ultimate arbiter, and it can be written in all sorts of ways.

Wonder what kind of law can be written to take account of how well a man can pass as a woman?

So what? An outlier is an outlier. Arseholes come in all categories.

Not at the present level of discourse it won’t

Given the number of sex offenders within the prison trans women community, there seems to be a lot of arseholes.

This is another falsity your level of discourse is not a higher level

It’s just ignoring women’s views and is tbf sliding all over the place

Yes, I'm interested in that. The comedian who for years called himself an "action transvestite" but now routinely uses women's facilities doesn't remotely "pass" and his 'transition' appears to be limited to specific clothes, makeup and nails.

I have, thanks