That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

Won't someone think of the imaginary ladyfeelz?

OK. I have checked with my reasonably lefty, boringly mainstream lesbian friend.
She knows a fair bit about the TG community. She says my view that Sarah Jane ????is as typical of them as Lucy Letby is of nurses is shared by many.

So why is everyone focussed on an outlier?

Sigh. The way forward is for people who care about abuse in hospitals - of and by staff and patients - to use data and reason to develop policies to minimise and ultimately prevent it

Like, for instance, keeping the sex who commit the overwhelming majority of these crimes out of the spaces intended for the sex who are the victims of the overwhelming majority of these crimes. Which is where the thread started, many many pages ago.

Data shows us that males, of any gender identity, commit 98% of these crimes. And talking about profound ordeals and souls is not using reason. If you really think we should use data and reason then the policies will be what multiple posters have suggested - reinstating that sex means biological sex.

"Higher level of debate"

Maybe head over to the feminist section and attempt your higher level of debate with the educated professionals, academics and medical experts there who have been dismantling this bullshit for years.

Also people can't change sex. Thats something called a fact. I'm not sure you are capable of being able to debate at a higher level if you can't understand basic facts. Gendered souls are fiction. Science fiction.

There are many ways forward. The solution will certainly involve following the law

Everyone is 'focussed on an outlier' because you.set out your criteria of who you believe counts as a woman, and SJB falls into it. So, not unreasonably, PP have asked whether you really think SJB and others like him are women. A question you seem reluctant to answer.

Also, I'm not sure there is evidence that SJB is an outlier, in terms of his aggression and threats against women. There are many other examples of aggressive misogynist TW. Here are just a few

https://terfisaslur.com/

I was the first on this thread to speak of chromosomal invariance. Gender dysphoria is recognised by medical professionals throughout the Western world.

You are correct that my networks support people who go to great lengths to resolve their gender dsyphoria. So does the NHS, carefully - as it should. Then I am happy for them to label themselves as they like

None of this amounts to anyone saying it is possible to change sex: read the first sentence again if necessary.

Of course boys & mean can have long hair. But no, they should not wear dresses

Their older child announced at a party when he was 10 that he was pan sexual. What 10 year old knows about that?! What 10 year old has any sexual feelings, never mind being able to put that in words. This kid is not very bright, so he is regurgitating information he’s been told. Talking in that detail to a 10 year old about that sort of topic is improper and perverse.

I’m not transphobic, I am not scared of them. It’s a mental illness and should not be celebrated. Even the gays are fed up of this alphabet soup agenda (my sibling is gay).

This was a female identifying as a man, or a 'transman'.

But "it's true because we say so" is the sole requirement for a trans identity.

And the law says that males of any gender identity, (including those who pass, including those who have surgery, including those with a GRC) can legitimately be excluded from women's single sex spaces. A position you have been arguing against for many pages due to your belief in gendered souls

The issue is, public bodies and private companies not using the provisions of the law to protect women. Because they have been trained by Stonewall and other gender believers that the law is something other than it is.

"But focussing on protecting children or women or staff or patients is less powerful than focussing on protecting everyone, and doing so without prejudice. Of course, sanctioning harassers is not prejudicial"

Don't focus on women and children who are the predominant victims of predatory men?

My words have been so badly and repeatedly distorted on this thread that I’m not going there.

I will go on record that I am certain there are complete arseholes in the TW community just as there are amongst straight and gay women and men. No group of reasonable size is exempt

@ArabellaScott thanks for clarifying that - the language has become so confusing now - as clearly are the guidelines around treating these patients.

Focus on all victims together. Focus on all culprits together

Absolutely. We need clear language.

I have said repeatedly that I favour ‘single sex’ spaces. A GRC should not suffice We disagree about a very, very small minority.

And if you’ve read my posts you know it cuts no ice with me

It’s how it goes in all these threads. Anyone not entirely in alignment with the most fervent of the posters is lumped in with the equally polemic TRAs. It’s a shame because it makes me unwilling to ask any questions to try to get my thoughts aligned for fear of saying something ‘wrong’ and getting piled on.

Occasionally someone like you will try and have a reasoned debate but get attacked, so they give up.

All these threads end up the same on MN.

None of this amounts to anyone saying it is possible to change sex: read the first sentence again if necessary.

Thank you for your clarity Poetry. If there is no question of these men changing sex, then it is clear that , as any other men, they should not be in female only spaces..

Great thanks!

Ironically I differ from almost all PPs only in supporting the use of the label ‘woman’ by those who have physically transitioned - I think they’ve earned it.

When I used scientific language I was accused of calling myself an HCP, then if masquerading as one - I did neither. When I reached for slightly literary language I just opened myself to primary school humour.

And I cannot count the number of people who have misconstrued or ‘misconstrued’ my posts.

Occasionally someone says something useful or provides a good reference. These posts are sadly rare. They do show that the situation is complex

See my post below yours

Thank you very much, Arabella Scott. You are showing us another way the situation is complex

It’s a shame because it makes me unwilling to ask any questions to try to get my thoughts aligned for fear of saying something ‘wrong’ and getting piled on.

I am very sorry you feel that way, but what argument do you think might sway women to agree to allow any man to share an open changing room with them? Granted some might say that a man who has undergone extensive plastic surgery and looks as if he were actually female, should be allowed in, as the women would not be aware that they were in a mixed sex changing room. However, that would be deception and would also discriminated against any other man who identifies as a women but doesn't pass. The only solution in this case is either to let all men in or keep all men out and unfortunately that would exclude those who believe that they can change their sex.