That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

Sorry derailing thread here

but just to be clear

not one person can change their sex and no, government ,council , education authority, and the rest should ever pretend we can

They are other words I suppose yes. Just not other words that mean anything similar to what littlebrowndog said.

The existence of gender identity is a belief, not a scientifically proven fact. That a small number of people struggle with the reality of their sexed body is not evidence that we all have a "gendered soul".

The idea of gender identity is baffling to many if us. I have no clue about what it means to "feel like a woman" I just am one.

If they can take the necessary steps to align their inner reality with law I will be delighted to recognise their reality. (A high bar indeed when it comes to royalty, doable for the clever when it comes to American citizenship) Some on this thread may be republicans but I daresay we all recognise American citizenship holders.

You know perfectly well that I reject your last sentence

So if someone took steps to 'align their inner African American identity' with law and then put themselves forward for scholarship and privileges designed for that group - you'd be supportive of that?

You haven't clarified on what grounds they actually are women though. So reject what you like but there's no logic behind it.

We do manage risk as best we can but you and I use analogies differently. To me, you are saying we should never drive because a few thousands are killed in car crashes every year.

That’s a poor analogy because driving is a perfectly normal and necessary activity, done by millions of people every day for sensible reasons, whereas changing sex isn’t possible at all, may or may not be the result of psychological disturbance, and certainly isn’t normal or necessary.
A medical analogy might be better, but most medical procedures are evidence based and carried out for therapeutic reasons. However, people are often denied the treatment they might prefer because the risk outweighs the benefit. For example, I requested a hysterectomy, but was offered the Mirena coil instead. Weirdly, these principles don’t seem to apply to anything gender related.

To be clear - I’m pointing out the error in interpretation of what the poster said, resulting in that analogy being made.

I said undergone full medical transition. The hormone treatment is a major part of this. Can someone show evidence of her hormonal treatment?

And ‘soul’, particularly as used in my phrase ‘soul, if you like’ is a literary term as much as a religious one.

What is this inner reality? I want people to align their sex with the law. Anything else is just slippery feelings. Men who think they're women have no idea what it's like to be a woman. That's why they say 'women don't object to me using their space, no-one has said anything to me.' they don't know that women don't object because they could be attacked. Because that's what men do. They don't care that the women in those spaces are highly likely to have experienced male violence, sexual harassment and assault in their lives. It is shocking that you would defend this @poetryandwine

But we were discussing male nurses, not TW anything, when this discussion began

Male nurses who are transwomen.

Well this is a fundamental problem with your wider position, isn't it? How will anyone know if a TW is having hormone treatment if they encounter them in a female space?

I think the law gets the final say there, not you or me. And if you had bothered to read my posts you would know that I have consistently defended single sex changing rooms. Pragmatically I am not sure the traumatised nurse from the OP can win a complaint, but that is a different question

I don't think there's a single woman alive who hasn't at some point been groped, verbally harassed or much much worse by a man. You want us to stop using our always on predator alert and accept men in women's spaces and we will not do that.

I don’t police people. See above te my stance on changing rooms.

You really haven’t read anything I’ve
said about SSCRs, have you?

You think men who have undergone surgery should be recognised as women. But they still look like men. So you want me to suppress my concern at a man in the toilets or changing rooms because they have a certificate. They not only still are men, they still look like men. Can't you see it's an impossible situation to put women in.

And of course the nurses will win their complaint. The law is very clear.

So you want to keep changing rooms female only, except for TW who have undergone surgery AND are taking hormones, but there's absolutely no way of verifying the latter (or the former really).

So in reality, that's women's spaces open to any man who wants to be in them ...

Some do, some don’t.

The certificate can be obtained through self ID, so bringing it into the conversation muddies the issue.

Living with this level of paranoia must take so much energy.

DH has just gone to bed and I think I will join him

Well I'll convey to my friend who was violently raped and now finds men in her intimate spaces very triggering that she's simply 'paranoid'. My good, listen to yourself 🙄

Best do poetryanndwine

have a great sleep

and always remember no one can change their sex

Men who 'transition' using surgery and hormones still look like men. They think they're 'passing' because they don't get challenged. They don't understand that when women are in a potentially dangerous situation they don't challenge the potential aggressor. They will ignore them and get away as soon as possible.