That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

With regards to transboys, the Cass review highlighted that girls who think they are trans currently outnumber boys who think they are trans six to one.

As Dr Cass points out, this is not like being gay or being left handed.

I have been looking into this. About TW in prison:

Firstly some good sources suggest we don’t know how many TW there are in the UK. The 2021 census identified about 250,000 TG people according to the usual meaning of the term. Only a small fraction identified specifically as TW or TM and those who did showed many contradictions along the lines of (I paraphrase) ‘which gender were you assigned at birth? - male’. ‘Which gender do you identify as now? - male’ Also a high proportion were born overseas or indicated English as a second language. So the media don’t think the numbers are robust.

Also they don’t think the TG prison population is robustly counted. Unless you have a GRC, you aren’t counted as TG unless you self identify and stay imprisoned long enough to have, I think it’s called, a case study. They think the TG population is undercounted. That would mean the percent of TW women imprisoned for sexual offences is over estimated.

One interesting thing I learned is that any imprisoned woman or TW can be transferred to a men’s prison if she is deemed too dangerous for a woman’s prison

More to come

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/ge2024-stand-up-for-single-sex-services/?mc_cid=4873a59526&mc_eid=36e86d155b

@heathspeedwell

I just saw a document from the Scottish government saying that about 1/5 of violent crimes are committed by women. I think only a couple of thousand women are imprisoned for all causes. It is hard to get good data.

Even if about 70% of TG people are TW, there would be under 200,000 TW in the UK according to the 2021 census. Although underestimated, only a couple hundred of them are known to be incarcerated

One interesting thing I learned is that anyimprisoned woman or TW can be transferred to a men’s prison if she is deemed too dangerous for a woman’s prison

Very interesting, and yet if you Google" violent female prisoners transferred to male prisons", the search only shows examples of men being transferred back to the male estate. Do you have any examples of a female prisoner being transferred to a male prisons?

There are (I think, the numbers may have changed) 4000 women total in the female prison estate.
It only takes one trans woman to impregnate all of them.

Any dangerous woman or TW will be transferred to a men’s prison. How does hyperbole help?

No but I read on uk.gov and elsewhere that it is the law

Actually a board member from Sex Matters is one of the people who called attention to the inconsistencies in the 2021 census data on TG people and pointed out why these may be down to difficulties with English. This is searchable - it is a male board member

A poor count of the TG population makes comparisons very difficult

@poetryandwine just popping back to see if you've done the research you required yet in order to answer my question? To refresh your memory, it's the one about whether you think men should have access to vulnerable women to carry out their personal intimate care, women who are non -verbal and cannot communicate their wish for female only care or their experiences of assault, or call for help if they're assaulted? Remember, a simple yes/no is all that's required.

If you've still to do your research the attached should be useful.

Although as I said upthread, if you need to 'research' whether or not men should have access to vulnerable, non-verbal female patients, I think we have our answer anyway.

@poetryandwine yes we know the census numbers for trans people are inaccurate. GC campaigners, including many from MN, said for a long time that the question wording would yield rubbish results. (Because it was worded to not offend trans people rather than for simplicity or accuracy).

But when the figures for TW sex offenders are hundreds or thousands of times higher than that of women, dodgy census numbers that over count in some areas and under count in others can't explain away this discrepancy.

One interesting thing I learned is that any imprisoned woman or TW can be transferred to a men’s prison if she is deemed too dangerous for a woman’s prison

All TW who are imprisoned should be in a men's prison in the first place, because they're men. We shouldn't have to wait for them to transgress before being put in the correct place for their sex. Otherwise, we should also put all gay, young, old, ill, disabled male prisoners in the women's, they're vulnerable in men's prison and women are just support humans for the actual important people right?

Just like all TW should be in men's or mixed changing rooms - you know, the subject of this thread - because they are men, and we shouldn't have to wait for women to be assaulted, perved on, scared, traumatised or impacted in any other way, before being allowed single sex spaces.

Your prioritisation of males over women says much

Reassignment surgery (I assume you mean a Gender Recognition Certificate) still shouldn’t grant these men access to women-only spaces. There is a single sex exemption in The Equality Act that excludes even these blokes

We cannot know the true rates for TW without knowing the TW population of the UK. Obviously. I expect it to be similar to rates for men, personally.

There’s one of me and many of you asking questions fast and furiously, to say nothing

Seems ‘transwomen’ are never sent on any training/ re-education re the rights of women

Of the goady, misleading and repetitive posts. I make no apology for taking my time

I was merely quoting the law. Don’t put words in my mouth

What is your point? I’ve not made an issue of this and don’t particularly care

The law also says that men, including TW whom have surgery, can be excluded from women's single sex spaces. But you don't agree that they should be.

Indeed.

I also think it's good that Poetryandwine is interrogating the figures that get bandied about on FWR and after a while get taken as gospel.

It's not her fault that the law does women no favours in its current form, nor that so many schools, universities and workplaces just basically shout at women to pretend harder that they can't tell male from female.

Is that referring to me asking you the same question, what, three or four times now? And still no answer! It surely doesn't take long to say yes or no.

And there's nothing goady about asking whether men should have access to the most vulnerable women who cannot speak for themselves.

It is appalling that men can access women's spaces. There should be another space available for people who feel they are in the wrong body like a unisex space.
I have my space, a man has his, then a unisex for A another, but sadly we have come to far down the road now as it has been accepted to happen now, but it does need not to.
Although I'm not sure any party would, and there is no divide between the parties on this really (well any that could get in) we still need to voice the opinion that a woman's right should not be diminished for anyone, man or other wise.

Is that referring to me asking you the same question, what, three or four times now? And still no answer! It surely doesn't take long to say yes or no

Whoa there,take a step back, this is a discussion board, not an interrogation. You don't go demanding answers from people, no one has to answer you no matter how many times you ask.

I have finally got some statistics for you, though not from the NHS.

I cannot link on my phone. The CNO or College of Nursing of Ontario reports that sexual abuse cases of nurses against patients are roughly 50-50 with a slight preponderance of women. Of course there are many more male nurses so there is a higher rate of male offenders. The numbers, which I have forgotten, are small.

In the US, over the period 2003-2016 there were about 885 cases of such abuse. 60-65% male so again high especially in proportion, but not overwhelmingly. This was over a period of 13 years and the US is about 5 x as large in population terms as the UK. In Britain it corresponds to about 8 assaults by male nurses and 5 assaults by female nurses annually. Even one such assault is one too many and I have not found data on how many there are, but I do not believe these numbers are high enough to affect national policy. You are of course welcome to find better statistics and share them