That women should not have to share changing rooms with men

[WandsOut]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

This is absolutely horrific and probably the first of many cases we will see now. Please read the article in full but this alone is appalling. The response by their HR should be noted because that is what is going to happen to every woman who complains about this if we keep allowing these fraudulent men to get away with what they want.

One of the nurses told The Mail on Sunday: 'We don't feel safe because we strip down to our underwear and [the individual] doesn't just stay by his locker. 'He walks around the changing room in his boxer shorts.'
Another nurse said she was 'close to tears' during one incident in the changing room.
She said: 'I was rummaging in my bag trying to find my lanyard and keys for the locker when a man's voice behind me said, 'Are you not getting changed yet?' 'I found my keys and opened my locker and I was asked again, 'Are you not getting changed yet?'.'
The woman, who was sexually abused as a child, has posttraumatic stress disorder and struggles to be alone around men. She said: 'He stood there, two metres away from me, with a scrub top on and with tight black boxer shorts with holes in them and asked a third time whether I was getting changed yet.
'Flight or fight mode kicked in but I felt glued to my seat, I could not move. 'My hands started to sweat. I was petrified and felt sick and began hyperventilating.'
In March, 26 nurses wrote to management saying that the transgender nurse 'has made no secret' of the fact that 'he has stopped taking female hormones and is trying to inseminate his female partner'.
AIBU to suggest NOW is the time to wake up, en masse and stop allowing BE KIND to be a mantra that allows predatory men access to women at their most vulnerable.

A fully transitioned transwoman still very obviously male

I don’t think simple self identification is enough to confer participation in any case.

When people have undergone physical treatments I don’t think we know enough to say. Going through male puberty may be an overwhelming advantage, but there is some research that taking oestrogen after puberty may work against athletic performance. And I don’t know what the data say about the effects of puberty blockers.

I am against anything that knowingly confers the biological advantages of maleness to participants in female sports, but I think we need to know more about exactly what those are.

I use the word ‘knowingly’ because I think there have been times when Caster Semaya (sp?), the African runner who may have a chromosomal difference, was treated badly. She identified as female her whole life and AFAIK did everything right. She was penalised for a difference she was unaware of

Caster Semeya's sex was clear from puberty.

Caster Semenya most certainly did not "identify as female" his whole life.

Poetry, your question seems to be ' if someone had been altered to look convincingly female, would you be able to tell they were male?'

That's rather a small subset when you've narrowed it down that far. And even then, if you listen to the radio, it can be very easy to spot the transwoman.

The setting for the comment was nothing to do with single sex spaces.

I have said several times on this thread that I support them

Ah, @nothingcomestonothing someone quoted me out of context somewhere along the way

Identified as a women by fathering a child

Allegedly.

Lots of useful info re Caster in this thread...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5066347-caster-semenya-court-case-due-15-may

Caster has children, he most definitely fathered them, he is married to a woman who used casters sperm to create the children. How that makes caster a woman i do not know.

I give you the gorgeous Laverne Cox, who has physically transitioned.

Sports Illustrated, hardly a bastion of wokeness, has had a physically transitioned cover model for one of their swimsuit issues, and elsewhere in the swimsuit issues. Victoria’s Secret has used physically transitioned models in print.

I found all if this with a quick search just now. Anyone can do the same

I give you the gorgeous Alex Drummond. Bearded transwoman and ambassador for Stonewall.

/

@Winnading ,@RiderOfTheBlue ,@OneTC

Thanks so much for your careful attention to the more substantive part of my reply.

I don’t think any of you have addressed the questions of Caster’s childhood, in any case.

@Thatchedroof1 sincere thanks for an interesting question

I thought MumsNetters aspired to higher things than physical insults

AFAIK there's no proof of, or acknowledgement of Caster fathering those children. I suspect he probably did though. He is certainly not a woman.

Please explain how pointing out Alex's beard is a 'physical insult'?

Seriously, you do know that transwomen can have beards? I can list at least 10 famous bearded transwomen. It's not unusual.

Maybe sometimes. I know lots of females with deep voices, too. I love a good bet but I wouldn’t put £££on your hypothesis. Maybe as smoking becomes truly a thing of the past it will gain validity….

What was the implication of pointing out that some of them pass then?

@poetryandwine I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think me mentioning Alex Drummond's beard was a 'physical insult.'

It seems like you still haven't grasped that the vast majority of transwomen are nothing like your acquaintances who have had surgery.

To be absolutely clear: over 95% of men who identify as transwomen have had no surgery on their penis. There are transwomen who don't modify their appearance at all.

agree x 1000000

I totally agree with peoples rights to self identify = I will call you what you want and you can dress and act how you want. But if you have a penis I don't feel comfortable in a changing room/changing area with you. End of

Luckily this bollox (great choice of word) wasn't an issue when my dd was growing up, it was boys & girls - and lesbians and gays. She never felt threatened by changing with lesbians as not every lesbian fancies every girl ... obviously, ;ucky really as she went to an all girls school

When I was a youngster We had transvestites of course - I worked with a lovely lady who yes, used the ladies loo's but we had separate cubicles (and this was 30 plus years ago) and I didn't feel threatened. But I genuinely wouldn't have wanted to strip off in front of her

Oh you misjudged us badly. We often used to descend into cake madness when the posting rules were incompatible with grammar.

I can go lower.

I totally agree with peoples rights to self identify = I will call you what you want and you can dress and act how you want. But if you have a penis I don't feel comfortable in a changing room/changing area with you. End of

The problem with agreeing to call men women is that you lose a bit of ground in the argument to keep them out of women's spaces. They can then make the argument that women's spaces are for them too. Language really does matter.

It's like seeing double.

No, it's not infallible. It's one of a combination of factors that often make it very easy to tell that the person concerned is male, that's all.

DH would probably agree with you. To him, I rather suspect tits = female, and he doesn't think about it more than that.

He's surprised year on year that I'm right about the sex of competitors or presenters on Eurovision.

My sister also claims to be unable to tell that one of her acquaintance is a transwoman. When I asked how she knew, in that case, she went a bit mumbly on the subject. It's politeness, I think.

@ExtraDay I only half disagree with your premise. The people willing to put themselves through these procedures are aligning their bodies with their inner selves. And some of the treatments are about much more than appearance. Altering the oestrogen/testosterone balance (also progesterone) in the body changes us quite a lot. All of us who have good and bad times in our cycles know that! So I see physically transitioning as much bigger than changing appearance

I agree it’s a very small subset. I have never been so shocked at the outrage, much of it poorly reasoned, this has generated. I’d wager many PPs have never knowingly met someone who has fully transitioned physically in their lives.

It is particularly ironic because the hormone treatment really does modify aggression, and alleged aggression is the basis for many of the claims about why the physically transitioned are amongst the dangerous.

I despise prejudice. In the large absence of facts to back the claims about the physically transitioned, that’s the vibe of many of these posts.

For the nth time, I favour separate changing spaces. Within reasonable parameters I also favour giving professionals the chance to do their jobs. Since I am not actually an HCP (and only entered a hypothetical situation by request) I am fine with the idea that others may disagree but on the whole I will prioritise other battles